USA Politics (redux)

[Jo498]

How much of the gun deaths/fatalities in the US are gang violence? 70, 80%, even more? As a European I cannot help being puzzled by the number of and general stance towards guns (beyond hunting rifles) in the US but I have the suspicion that one major factor is not the sheer number of guns but that the US is in some respects, including gang violence, not really like a first world country.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

(A large number of gun deaths in the US are also suicides. And now for something that might sound horribly cynical: I very much prefer that people use guns rather than trains as surefire suicide method. The latter really sucks for the train drivers who often get traumatized and the passengers who get delayed.)

[fbjim]

I don't see this as either/or.

True but I think mass school shootings with assault rifles are sort of like plane crashes versus car crashes, where they get a lot of press despite their relative rarity (and I no way intend to suggest they aren't problems, or tragedies) whereas "normal" shootings which are deadly due to the wide availability of powerful handguns get ignored.

And it also tends to shift the conversation into stupid debates on what constitutes an "assault rifle" which nobody really likes.

[Karl Henning]

True but I think mass school shootings with assault rifles are sort of like plane crashes versus car crashes, where they get a lot of press despite their relative rarity (and I no way intend to suggest they aren't problems, or tragedies) whereas "normal" shootings which are deadly due to the wide availability of powerful handguns get ignored.

And it also tends to shift the conversation into stupid debates on what constitutes an "assault rifle" which nobody really likes.

Agreed on all points.

[Madiel]

How much of the gun deaths/fatalities in the US are gang violence? 70, 80%, even more? As a European I cannot help being puzzled by the number of and general stance towards guns (beyond hunting rifles) in the US but I have the suspicion that one major factor is not the sheer number of guns but that the US is in some respects, including gang violence, not really like a first world country.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

(A large number of gun deaths in the US are also suicides. And now for something that might sound horribly cynical: I very much prefer that people use guns rather than trains as surefire suicide method. The latter really sucks for the train drivers who often get traumatized and the passengers who get delayed.)

Guns are convenient. Trains require waiting and planning.

Really, the clearest effect by far of gun laws is to reduce suicides. The idea that people will simply switch suicide methods IS A MYTH. And that's because the vast majority of suicide attempts are impulsive. They're not carried out if there isn't a means of carrying out available at the time of the impulse.

So yes, guns ARE an efficient means of carrying out suicide. And that's exactly the whole problem. Just as guns are an efficient way of expressing an anger impulse, and a quick and "efficient" way of making a mistake about someone's identity or intentions.

The notion that people will find another means of achieving the same result is simply not true in a large number of cases. Because the result only happened when a gun made the result quick and simple. By the time a suicidal person gets to the train station, there's a good chance they will no longer be suicidal. And you never find out about all of the people who THOUGHT about throwing themselves in front of a train but never did it because the thought had passed by the time they were near a train.

[LKB]

Unions don't use mandatory contributions (dues) to fund campaigns and political activities. They support PACs through voluntary contributions of individual members. So the conclusion, based on your own statement, would seem to be that corporations shouldn't be allowed to give money to politicians, right? But to be serious: The difference here is between voluntary contributions of individuals versus contributions of corporate entities. In unions the right of free speech, if we are equating money to speech as Citizens United does, accrues only to individuals, which is in line with what the framers clearly intended in the Bill of Rights. Citizens United extended the right of free speech (monetarily defined) to corporations, which is clearly not what the framers intended.

8⁸⁷⁷77 I 877⁷⅞

[MusicTurner]

8⁸⁷⁷77 I 877⁷⅞

You kind of lost me there - possibly even others ...? 

[Florestan]

Really, the clearest effect by far of gun laws is to reduce suicides. The idea that people will simply switch suicide methods IS A MYTH. And that's because the vast majority of suicide attempts are impulsive. They're not carried out if there isn't a means of carrying out available at the time of the impulse.

Ummm. not quite.

Cutting one's veins with a kitchen knife is a very effective suicide method. So is jumping off the window or ingurgitating all drugs one finds in the house. 

The whole idea of gun control is to drastically reduce the possibility of a nutjob to kill other people. A suicidal person will always find a way to do it.

[Jo498]

You don't let yourself run over at a train station but elsewhere when a train is at normal speed and less people around. But, of course, it's not something one can do impulsively and many people might get back to their senses on their way to the train track but not with a gun rack in the house.
However, I don't think suicide prevention should be a main justification for strict gun laws. (And I actually never heard this before as a central argument against liberal gun laws.)

[Madiel]

Ummm. not quite.

Cutting one's veins with a kitchen knife is a very effective suicide method. So is jumping off the window or ingurgitating all drugs one finds in the house. 

The whole idea of gun control is to drastically reduce the possibility of a nutjob to kill other people. A suicidal person will always find a way to do it.

The research says otherwise. Actual research. Not "common sense". Actual data that shows how reducing access to guns correlates to fewer suicides.

[Florestan]

You don't let yourself run over at a train station but elsewhere when a train is at normal speed and less people around. But, of course, it's not something one can do impulsively and many people might get back to their senses on their way to the train track

Actually, beside Anna Karenina I neither know, or heard of, any other person who commited suicide by jumping in front of a train.

[Florestan]

The research says otherwise. Actual research. Not "common sense". Actual data that shows how reducing access to guns correlates to fewer suicides.

What do Australian research and data show? What are the ten most common suicide methods used in Australia?

[Madiel]

What do Australian research and data show? What are the ten most common suicide methods used in Australia?

Knock yourself out. There's Australian research in the episodes and the links amongst others.

https://gimletmedia.com/amp/shows/science-vs/z3hlvr

https://gimletmedia.com/amp/shows/science-vs/o2hojg/gun-control-pt-2

[Madiel]

Or here is one of the Australian things directly. https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007

2007 is a bit old, I don't know if there is a newer study.

This and other sources will make a similar key point: attempts with a gun are more likely to be successful than attempts with other methods. Even when people are suicidal, and make an attempt, it matters what means they have available. I briefly saw an American source where guns represented a tiny fraction of unsuccessful attempts and a majority of successful ones.

I mean, the whole POINT of guns is to make killing quicker and simpler. It shouldn't be a surprise that losing access to guns makes it more difficult.

Every time someone claims that people will kill themselves or others anyway, it's basically a claim that guns don't WORK. Like claiming that motor cars have no bearing on the distances that people choose to travel.

[Florestan]

Or here is one of the Australian things directly. https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007

2007 is a bit old, I don't know if there is a newer study.

This and other sources will make a similar key point: attempts with a gun are more likely to be successful than attempts with other methods.

Which only proves my point: if Australian gun laws, though being much stricter than the USA gun laws, cannot prevent suicidal people from killing themselves mostly with a gun, yet gun mass killing in Australia are far fewer than in the USA, then the whole point of gun control is to prevent a nutjob from killing other people, not to prevent suicides. Heck, killing other people is a criminal offense, suicide is not.

[Karl Henning]

Actually, beside Anna Karenina I neither know, or heard of, any other person who commited suicide by jumping in front of a train.

It's happened on American subways, more frequently than anyone likes.

[BasilValentine]

In today's testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson we learned that Donald Trump was aware that many of his supporters hanging around just outside the security perimeter for his speech at the ellipse were armed and were refusing to enter the area because they would have had to pass through magnetometers, where their weapons, including AR-15s and other firearms, would have been confiscated. Trump demanded that the magnetometer scans cease and that his armed supporters be allowed to enter with their weapons because "they aren't here to hurt me." He said this knowing that armed supporters would proceed directly from there to the capitol after hearing him exhort them to fight like hell. Trump was purposely inciting a crowd he knew to be armed to march on the capitol at a time when he fully planned to accompany the armed insurrection.

Furthermore, and hilariously, Trump actually physically assaulted the driver of his limousine when he found out his staff and security detail, in part trying to save his dumb ass from participating in the actual attack, were returning to the White House. Also in the funny category are the descriptions of Drumpf throwing his lunch against the wall, breaking plates, and tossing whole table settings to the floor. The rampaging toddler president.

[BasilValentine]

Actually, beside Anna Karenina I neither know, or heard of, any other person who commited suicide by jumping in front of a train.

Hah! You have never lived in New York City.

[Florestan]

Hah! You have never lived in New York City.

Never indeed.

I mean, there's the Bucharest subway but in 40 years there has been exactly one suicide, and exactly one assassination attempt, in which a person jumped, or was pushed, in front of the train. Otoh, in 40 years there has been no such case in any of the Bucharest railway stations.

I guess Bucharest is either a safer or a saner city than New York.

[MusicTurner]

A large amount of Danish train staff will statistically be confronted with train suicides; the numbers say 1 in each train driver's career. Some will see several cases. In 2018, there were 31. Various measures are taken, including trauma treatment options etc., it's considered an unfortunate, but likely part of the job, perhaps cutting 5 years of their expected lifetime due to the stress involved.

[Florestan]

A majority of Danish train staff will statistically be confronted with train suicides; some will see several cases. In 2018, there were 31. Various measures are taken, including trauma treatment options etc., it's considered an unfortunate, but  likely part of the job.

By far most suicides in Romania are committed by shooting themselves but then again it's mostly policemen and military personnel, ie persons with easy, rather unrestricted access to guns.

A cousin of mine attempted suicide twice: first by cutting his veins, second by ingurgitating a huge amount of drugs. Both attempts were unsuccesfull. He eventually died of amygdalian cancer.