USA Politics (redux)

[DavidW]

Don't tell me, nobody here understands Trafalmadorian???. 

Actually, l dozed off while apparently touching my phone, sorry for any confusion.

I thought it was secret code!  I don't know how many times I read that post going "what!?" I didn't have my secret decoder ring.  BE SURE TO DRINK YOUR OVALTINE.

[Gurn Blanston]

That seems like overly insulting/demeaning language.

Well,  I don't know about the 'overly' part,  but it is probably over the line,  I'm sure Karl won't repeat it.  As I said in another thread last night,  no one has suddenly given the green light to ad hominem  attacks or insulting/demeaning language,  even when logic demands it.

🤠😎

[MusicTurner]

I thought it was secret code!  I don't know how many times I read that post going "what!?" I didn't have my secret decoder ring.  BE SURE TO DRINK YOUR OVALTINE.

I tried checking those numbers with US amendments and other stuff ...
 

[LKB]

I tried checking those numbers with US amendments and other stuff ...
 

Actually, I've pretty much forgotten my native tongue... too many decades here with y'all on this cozy little planet. 

[Fëanor]

It sounds like your laws have been similar to Australian ones in many respects.

The practical difference between Canada and Australia gun control laws but the fact that is far easier to smuggle untraceable guns into Canada from the USA.

The USA is a vast pool of guns available to smugglers for export.  Beyond reasonable doubt is that the recently increased use of guns in the commission of crimes in major Canadian cities is due to the availability of smuggled weapons.

[Daverz]

That seems like overly insulting/demeaning language.

But good advice.

[greg]

You have no idea what websites I visit, so are in no position to adopt a supercilious attitude with me.

I meant to write "you all," not meant to be directed hyperfocused at you specifically, but it didn't come out that way- so my bad.

Let me just say this, it should bother you at a conceptual level to realize that you seem to think that enough Libs can be so congruent on any level that they would get together and commit uncivil disobedience. At a level high enough to actually cause problems? This sounds to me suspiciously like the Great Migrant Caravan that mysteriously disappears the day after every election....   

That is definitely one thing holding the left back a lot.
But only so much... did you just forget about the months of George Floyd riots? Definitely qualifies as getting together, causing sustained civil disobedience at a high level for a very long time.

However, arson, vandalism, and looting that occurred between May 26 and June 8 caused approximately $1–2 billion in damages nationally, the highest recorded damage from civil disorder in U.S. history, and surpassing the record set during the 1992 Los Angeles riots

And 25 dead.

Didn't intend to bring it up, since I'm not interested in dwelling on that two years later (as people are dwelling on Jan 6 a year and a half later), but bringing up potential violence now ends up in little comparison games.

And elected officials on the left aren't calling for violence or amplifying those nutjob voices and would had have denounced calls for violence.

A distinction greg seems not to see.

I do see... Biden explicitly said he doesn't support violence. Which is great.
The distinction isn't really important. Violence is violence, no matter who is calling for it.

I haven't heard of the second subreddit, but the first has a strict no call for violence rule that is a ban-able offense that is strictly enforced by the mods.  And they have NOT been posting calls for violence.  Quit your BS.

Maybe it's gotten deleted then. There was less on that subreddit that I saw.

[greg]

Nobody's burning down the Supreme Court.

They are demonstrating in front of that building, that's all.

greg should take several deep breaths before posting. He may still wind up gibbering, but at least there will have been the attempt to supply the brain with oxygen.

Leftist with 159k followers.


I just checked, took several days but finally that tweet was removed.

So no, I'm not just making stuff up, people are talking about it.

[greg]

That seems like overly insulting/demeaning language.

But you should expect the abuse here. Especially when it is just pure ad hom, with no counterargument at all.

[BasilValentine]

That is definitely one thing holding the left back a lot.
But only so much... did you just forget about the months of George Floyd riots? Definitely qualifies as getting together, causing sustained civil disobedience at a high level for a very long time.

On what basis do you claim these people were leftist? Politics in that sense had nothing to do with it. Blacks, whites, and others of all parties as well as independents were involved. And you have conspicuously failed to notice that a large part of the violence was perpetrated by police and by illegally mustered paramilitary troops against peaceful protesters, reporters, and bystanders. Do you remember Trump's march to hold a bible upside down in front of a church in D.C.? That little outing entailed hundreds of assaults on innocent protesters who were obeying all applicable laws at the time. That was a riot explicitly ordered by the president and perpetrated by police, prison guards, and homeland security personnel, which makes Donald Trump the individual personally responsible for more unprovoked violence at the BLM protests than anyone else in the US. And you apparently have forgotten that Trump used federal agents outside their legal authority to kidnap people off of the streets in Portland. Another major part of the violence was due to police refusing to control, if not outright encouraging, armed counter protesters. In Kenosha the police actually unofficially deputized such people and aided and abetted even ones who were carrying firearms illegally. A good deal of the property damage and violence was instigated by counter protesters. Do you remember umbrella man breaking the windows of businesses in Portland? He wasn't BLM or antifa, he turned out to be on "the other" side.

[SimonNZ]

On what basis do you claim these people were leftist? Politics in that sense had nothing to do with it. Blacks, whites, and others of all parties as well as independents were involved. And you have conspicuously failed to notice that a large part of the violence was perpetrated by police and by illegally mustered paramilitary troops against peaceful protesters, reporters, and bystanders. Do you remember Trump's march to hold a bible upside down in front of a church in D.C.? That little outing entailed hundreds of assaults on innocent protesters who were obeying all applicable laws at the time. That was a riot explicitly ordered by the president and perpetrated by police, prison guards, and homeland security personnel, which makes Donald Trump the individual personally responsible for more unprovoked violence at the BLM protests than anyone else in the US. And you apparently have forgotten that Trump used federal agents outside their legal authority to kidnap people off of the streets in Portland. Another major part of the violence was due to police refusing to control, if not outright encouraging, armed counter protesters. In Kenosha the police actually unofficially deputized such people and aided and abetted even ones who were carrying firearms illegally. A good deal of the property damage and violence was instigated by counter protesters. Do you remember umbrella man breaking the windows of businesses in Portland? He wasn't BLM or antifa, he turned out to be on "the other" side.

This.

And as I've said before on this thread, I blame Trump further for not speaking in empathy with the black community or calling for police reform or doing anything at all to defuse the situation at any point along the way, but rather did everything he could to stoke bad feeling and outrage and division to the point of explosion, because it plays better with the maga base to support bad cops and paint blacks as thugs.

[SimonNZ]

I just checked, took several days but finally that tweet was removed.

So no, I'm not just making stuff up, people are talking about it.

Every dumb thing gets said on places like twitter every day. That you can dig up a few idiot tweets says nothing about larger trends.

When you have to worry is when these ideas become acceptable and prevalent in a chorus of leaders and followers as they are with the Trumpist calls for violence. There is no culture of permission or coordinated message of shit like this from the left.

[Gurn Blanston]

But only so much... did you just forget about the months of George Floyd riots? Definitely qualifies as getting together, causing sustained civil disobedience at a high level for a very long time.

And 25 dead.

I didn't forget it. I have yet to see any solid evidence that it was "Leftists" anymore than anyone else. Are Lefties the only people who care about the police murdering innocent people? It shouldn't be just us. I would be glad to know that all the pissed off Blacks in this country were 'Leftists'. Somehow I think that might just be a Rightie's wet dream.  In addition, nearly everything I was able to discover gives me solid reason to believe that there were a significant number of right-wing agitators initiating the violent parts of those protests. Significantly, none of those protests took place in the Capitol Building while Congress was in session, and I just can't recall whether or not they were gonna hang Pence then either, although he has always deserved it.

[milk]

Yeah. 1/6 is on Trump. He should have been convicted and barred from office. He probably should be in jail. As for the riots after the George Floyd murder, a lot of it was from the left, not all, but a lot of it. Many of my friends on the left rationalized it and many on the left still do. Some even say rioting is justified. Anyway, as a narrative, I think BLM is misplaced and yes I'm still on the left and of course racism is still a huge problem in America. I have a nuanced view of it in that I do not think black people are being murdered by racist cops in significant numbers (though of course even one innocent person killed by a cop is terrible). And I think liberal "defund the police" types pushing anti-police narratives are probably doing more harm than good to black neighborhoods. One cannot have a dialogue about these issues anymore really. Not out in the open. Looking at America from afar, it doesn't look like people can really discuss anything anymore.

[Spotted Horses]

I didn't forget it. I have yet to see any solid evidence that it was "Leftists" anymore than anyone else. Are Lefties the only people who care about the police murdering innocent people? It shouldn't be just us. I would be glad to know that all the pissed off Blacks in this country were 'Leftists'. Somehow I think that might just be a Rightie's wet dream.  In addition, nearly everything I was able to discover gives me solid reason to believe that there were a significant number of right-wing agitators initiating the violent parts of those protests. Significantly, none of those protests took place in the Capitol Building while Congress was in session, and I just can't recall whether or not they were gonna hang Pence then either, although he has always deserved it.

Another point I would make is that "civil disobedience" is not a bad thing. As I learned in elementary school, the purpose of civil disobedience is to peacefully stand for what you believe in, and when the authorities brutally attack, they make a public spectacle of the illegitimacy of the regime. That's what happened, for instance, when people watching television saw police in Selma Alabama and Birmingham Alabama attacking peaceful civil rights demonstrators with fire hoses and attack dogs.







The destruction of property that was coincident with the BLM protests was typically not part of the protest. Any event which results in a breakdown in public order brings out petty criminals and looters who take to opportunity to smash a window and grab a television, etc. Power failures in New York routinely result in widespread rioting and looting. That is what the U.S. is like.

[milk]

Another point I would make is that "civil disobedience" is not a bad thing. As I learned in elementary school, the purpose of civil disobedience is to peacefully stand for what you believe in, and when the authorities brutally attack, they make a public spectacle of the illegitimacy of the regime. That's what happened, for instance, when people watching television saw police in Selma Alabama and Birmingham Alabama attacking peaceful civil rights demonstrators with fire hoses and attack dogs.







The destruction of property that was coincident with the BLM protests was typically not part of the protest. Any event which results in a breakdown in public order brings out petty criminals and looters who take to opportunity to smash a window and grab a television, etc. Power failures in New York routinely result in widespread rioting and looting. That is what the U.S. is like.

You're rationalizing and justifying. Yes, the rioting, looting and property damage were caused by many different sorts of people and incidents. However, included in this is the left-wing agitators and activists (as well as far-right agitators). Just look at who burned down the police station in Minneapolis.
Civil disobedience can be a good thing but it can also be irresponsible. Leaving aside my own opinion that there is no comparison to what was happening in the 60s in terms of injustice, when national movements come into a local community and shut down businesses, they do assume some responsibility for the results.
Returning to my own opinion: what they were asking for was what? In Wisconsin? In Atlanta? Mob justice? These were very different individual circumstances and collectively different from the Floyd case. I just think this became something of a farce, and a dangerous one. The whole point of civil disobedience is to win hearts and minds. That should be kept in view as well.

[BasilValentine]

Yeah. 1/6 is on Trump. He should have been convicted and barred from office. He probably should be in jail. As for the riots after the George Floyd murder, a lot of it was from the left, not all, but a lot of it. Many of my friends on the left rationalized it and many on the left still do. Some even say rioting is justified. Anyway, as a narrative, I think BLM is misplaced and yes I'm still on the left and of course racism is still a huge problem in America. I have a nuanced view of it in that I do not think black people are being murdered by racist cops in significant numbers (though of course even one innocent person killed by a cop is terrible). And I think liberal "defund the police" types pushing anti-police narratives are probably doing more harm than good to black neighborhoods. One cannot have a dialogue about these issues anymore really. Not out in the open. Looking at America from afar, it doesn't look like people can really discuss anything anymore.

What you fail to mention is that police intentionally fomented much of the violence at the protests and in a number of cases prison guards repurposed without insignia and border patrol agents used in the same way — that is, people trained to react violently and with impunity against any resistance — were deployed against peaceful protesters. The reflexive resort to full riot gear and truncheons was also in many cases an act of intentional incitement, as was their coddling of, encouragement of, and intentional failure to control counter protesters. In short, the law enforcement response to protests was to a significant extent intentional action with a political agenda. Violence flourished and was cultivated at protests because it was a political windfall for the Trump administration, for republican politicians, and for police chiefs and departments under pressure from defunding proposals and efforts at making police publicly and legally accountable.

As for the bold portion: There is extensive and pervasive violence against blacks. It doesn't always end with murder.   

[Spotted Horses]

You're rationalizing and justifying. Yes, the rioting, looting and property damage were caused by many different sorts of people and incidents. However, included in this is the left-wing agitators and activists (as well as far-right agitators). Just look at who burned down the police station in Minneapolis.
Civil disobedience can be a good thing but it can also be irresponsible. Leaving aside my own opinion that there is no comparison to what was happening in the 60s in terms of injustice, when national movements come into a local community and shut down businesses, they do assume some responsibility for the results.
Returning to my own opinion: what they were asking for was what? In Wisconsin? In Atlanta? Mob justice? These were very different individual circumstances and collectively different from the Floyd case. I just think this became something of a farce, and a dangerous one. The whole point of civil disobedience is to win hearts and minds. That should be kept in view as well.

On matters like this I don't pay attention to national news from any source, which has the luxury of cherry picking items to suit their narrative. I look at local news from places where I lived or have recently lived and where I understand the context. I live in the Houston area. I read in the Houston Chronicle that there was a protest drawing (as I recall) 50,000 people in Central Houston. There were no reports of significant violence or property damage. In the leafy suburb where I live a high school student organized a BLM march on social media. They marched from the main business district to a nearby park, causing minor traffic disruption. In the small California town where I used to live there was a week of protests. Protesters, at one point, walked out onto the major road through the town (US101) and blocked traffic. They were driven away by the police using tear gas and rubber bullets. I read in the local paper that three shop windows were broken in the downtown area near where the protests occurred. The 18 year old woman who was one of the main organizers of the protest has been charged with ~20 fellonies, and prosecutors want to send her to prison for more than 20 years. At the height of the protest a motorist tried to run her down with his car and she struck the car with a flag pole she was carrying. In D.C., several friends reported participating in BLM protests in the capitol. One is a lawyer, the other a technology consultant working for Reuters. They reported an uplifting experience. One referenced a post by the pastor of the church where Trump displayed the upside-down bible. They were helping protesters with water and food and were attacked and driven out of their own church by a tear gas attack by Federal agents, so that Trump could occupy their church and use it for a photo.

I am a 100% supporter of BLM, which is a decentralized organization which condemns violence in all forms. I don't think the are responsible for violence that occurs at the periphery of protests they organize, or which are conducted in their name without their involvement. Their focus is not exclusively on police violence, but on the fact that U.S. society does not value black people, which does not allow them the same access to educational, economic or social resources.

[Gurn Blanston]

On matters like this I don't pay attention to national news from any source, which has the luxury of cherry picking items to suit their narrative. I look at local news from places where I lived or have recently lived and where I understand the context. I live in the Houston area. I read in the Houston Chronicle that there was a protest drawing (as I recall) 50,000 people in Central Houston. There were no reports of significant violence or property damage. In the leafy suburb where I live a high school student organized a BLM march on social media. They marched from the main business district to a nearby park, causing minor traffic disruption. In the small California town where I used to live there was a week of protests. Protesters, at one point, walked out onto the major road through the town (US101) and blocked traffic. They were driven away by the police using tear gas and rubber bullets. I read in the local paper that three shop windows were broken in the downtown area near where the protests occurred. The 18 year old woman who was one of the main organizers of the protest has been charged with ~20 fellonies, and prosecutors want to send her to prison for more than 20 years. At the height of the protest a motorist tried to run her down with his car and she struck the car with a flag pole she was carrying. In D.C., several friends reported participating in BLM protests in the capitol. One is a lawyer, the other a technology consultant working for Reuters. They reported an uplifting experience. One referenced a post by the pastor of the church where Trump displayed the upside-down bible. They were helping protesters with water and food and were attacked and driven out of their own church by a tear gas attack by Federal agents, so that Trump could occupy their church and use it for a photo.

I am a 100% supporter of BLM, which is a decentralized organization which condemns violence in all forms. I don't think the are responsible for violence that occurs at the periphery of protests they organize, or which are conducted in their name without their involvement. Their focus is not exclusively on police violence, but on the fact that U.S. society does not value black people, which does not allow them the same access to educational, economic or social resources.

Ditto, word for word. (Including the geography. In Texas terms I live "just up the road" (125 miles)).

[milk]

What you fail to mention is that police intentionally fomented much of the violence at the protests and in a number of cases prison guards repurposed without insignia and border patrol agents used in the same way — that is, people trained to react violently and with impunity against any resistance — were deployed against peaceful protesters. The reflexive resort to full riot gear and truncheons was also in many cases an act of intentional incitement, as was their coddling of, encouragement of, and intentional failure to control counter protesters. In short, the law enforcement response to protests was to a significant extent intentional action with a political agenda. Violence flourished and was cultivated at protests because it was a political windfall for the Trump administration, for republican politicians, and for police chiefs and departments under pressure from defunding proposals and efforts at making police publicly and legally accountable.

As for the bold portion: There is extensive and pervasive violence against blacks. It doesn't always end with murder.

that's a narrative for which I'm sure you can find an example. It has happened in the past, that's for sure. I don't believe that's the whole story but I have ideas about what would change my mind. What would change yours? But I had a friend who was certain the "Umbrella man" (a man with an umbrella who broke windows) in Minneapolis was a cop. He even knew which one as it was a big rumor goin around the internet and in circles in ST. Paul and Minneapolis. They named him. I asked him, "how do you know?" His answer? "I just know." Now this turned out to be a far right wing activist. I didn't say it was the left. I just said "I don't know." I refuse to stick my fingers in my ears. The ones who burnt down the police station? Not right wingers. I'm not saying they were BLM but BLM came into Wisconsin and Atlanta and St Louis with an unquestionable narrative and a siege mentality. Many of these incidents do not fit their narrative. One can disagree. Yes, they did shut down those cities for many businesses.