USA Politics (redux)

[Karl Henning]

I would think work ethic a more important factor in number of staff required.

Anyone here want to argue that women are lazier than men?

With all the men who leap to do the housework?

[Spotted Horses]

A Canadian naval officer I spoke to a few years back made the point that made the point that accommodating women in the service.  It often results in situation, e.g., where four men could be counted on to haul a cable, they had to a allow five if a couple were women.  Increasing a ship's complement by 25% isn't a trivial matter.

Right, 25% more staff is required because sailors spend 100% of their time hauling cables.

Women, on average, achieve superior academic performance compared with men. Did the U.S.S. Fitzgerald collide with a slow-moving container ship because the sailors weren't hauling cables fast enough, or because the ship was staffed by idiots?

[Fëanor]

Right, 25% more staff is required because sailors spend 100% of their time hauling cables.

Women, on average, achieve superior academic performance compared with men. Did the U.S.S. Fitzgerald collide with a slow-moving container ship because the sailors weren't hauling cables fast enough, or because the ship was staffed by idiots?

All true, and I'm sure that women make excellent radar operators for example.

But there is the fact that women demand, as a matter of human right, to apply for jobs such as firefighter -- or cable hauler -- that require physical strength.

When I asked my naval officer acquaintance whether strength criteria and testing couldn't perhaps be part of selection, he remined me that such criteria, (seemingly rational), are denounced as purposely designed to exclude women.

[Fëanor]

According to University of Texas Statistics, the credentials students enter with do predict their academic performance. Madiel is on weak ground. If he could show otherwise, I'd be happy. Really. Then, the problem would vanish and the whole thing would just be a matter of making university student numbers match the identity ratio they're looking for. I guess that'd work. Or, they could just skew it towards some intersectional oppression matrix - which is what some people really want. That seems more sinister to me, more divisive. This brings us away from any "liberal" logic to what critical academic theorists really want: they don't care about any of these real world measures of ability. They don't believe any of it anyway. It wouldn't matter what achievements or accomplishments are reached because it's all part of a structure of power and oppression. In the critical view, we don't judge by the "liberal" views which are inherently skewed towards white supremacy and capitalist oppression. We should really be judging by narratives of oppression in all fields, including mathematics and sciences.

You alluded to the fact that leading US universities have an embarrassment of Asian students admitted on the basis of high achievement.  (I think I've heard vague talk of quotas -- which I certainly hope is untrue).  But certainly "White privilege" isn't the reason for the Asian students' success.

I'm brought to mind of the 65,000 Vietnamize "boat people" who were admitted to Canada in the aftermath of that war.  These folks arrived with little more that the raggy tee-shirts on their backs but today they, and certainly their children, enjoy the economic status of average Canadians at least.  They have a very respectable proportion of multi-millionaires and their kids are well represented amongst those high-achieving Asian students.  Sometimes I wish our Canadian indigenous communities would take an example from Vietnamize immigrants hard work and whine a little less about discrimination and poverty.

[Madiel]

Sometimes I wish our Canadian indigenous communities would take an example from Vietnamize immigrants hard work and whine a little less about discrimination and poverty.

Maybe no-one was forbidding Vietnamese migrant kids from speaking Vietnamese at home (indeed allowing them to stay home), or sexually abusing them, or burying them in the schoolyard? Just speculating.

Anyway, this a thread that's supposed to be about American politics, not about spectacular insensitivity to what happened to Canada's indigenous population.

[DavidW]

Women, on average, achieve superior academic performance compared with men.

And men aren't going to college anymore or are dropping out.  Most schools are at 60-40 (female to male percentages) and within the next few years it will be predicted to be 70-30 and some colleges are already there.

[Karl Henning]

That's a bad trend.

[Fëanor]

Maybe no-one was forbidding Vietnamese migrant kids from speaking Vietnamese at home (indeed allowing them to stay home), or sexually abusing them, or burying them in the schoolyard? Just speculating.

Anyway, this a thread that's supposed to be about American politics, not about spectacular insensitivity to what happened to Canada's indigenous population.

I will say very clearly that I view the residential school system as an abhorrent scar on the record of Canadian human rights, but manditory attendance ended in 1947 and the last school was closed 25 years ago.  Today reparations (!!) are being made today on account of them.

(Reparations for American descendants of slaves ... humm  )

Misguided Canadian politicians and educators of the 19th century, with White man's arrogance, assumed that assimilation, (albeit forced), would be a net benefit for the indigenous people.  They were wrong, and evils were done that not even they expected, notably physical and sexual abuse o young children.  Part from the inherent injustice of forced assimilation, authorities assigned operation of the schools to various churches without requiring accountability from them.  (It's always mistake to assume the religious folk will do the right thing.)

[DizzyD]

I will say very clearly that I view the residential school system as an abhorrent scare on the record of Canadian human rights, but manditory attendance ended in 1947 and the last school was closed 25 years ago.  Today reparations (!!) are being made today on account of them.

(Reparations for American descendants of slaves ... humm  )

Misguided Canadian politicians and educators of the 19th century, with White man's arrogance, assumed that assimilation, (albeit forced), would be a net benefit for the indigenous people.  They were wrong, and evils were done that not even they expected, notably physical and sexual abuse o young children.  Part from the inherent injustice of forced assimilation, authorities assigned operation of the schools to various churches without requiring accountability from them.  (It's always mistake to assume the religious folk will do the right thing.)

Were the remains of the Indigenous schoolchildren in Canada ever actually found? I remember this story from about this time last year and it just seemed to drop off the radar in a hurry.

(It's always mistake to assume the religious folk will do the right thing.)

Why? I'll remind you that it was "religious folk" who were behind the abolition of slavery.

[Spotted Horses]

I'll remind you that it was "religious folk" who were behind the abolition of slavery.

...and the establishment of slavery. Just sayin'.

[DizzyD]

...and the establishment of slavery. Just sayin'.

And it was the irreligious who brought us the gulags. Just sayin'. In other words, what's the correlation? It sounds like a somewhat bigoted statement to me.

[Fëanor]

Were the remains of the Indigenous schoolchildren in Canada ever actually found? I remember this story from about this time last year and it just seemed to drop off the radar in a hurry.

Yes, many have been located and the search actively goes on to find more unmarked graves.  Efforts are planned to identify the remains of specific children.

What might be helpful to locating further remains and identifying the children would be the release information relating to the operation of the schools  by the Roman Catholic Church which is not yet forthcoming.  (The RC Church operated more residential schools than any other denomination;  the Anglican Church operated the second most.)  None of the denominations' higher authorities demanded sufficient accountability from the operators on-the-ground to prevent the mental, physical, and sex abuse that took place.

Note that I never said that all religious people are bad, nor religion in general, (though the thought has crossed my mind).

Since we're supposed to be talking about American polities, my understanding is that similar, compulsory residential schools existed in the USA, at least in some areas.  If I'm wrong please let me know.

[DizzyD]

Yes, many have been located and the search actively goes on to find more unmarked graves.  Efforts are planned to identify the remains of specific children.

What might be helpful to locating further remains and identifying the children would be the release information relating to the operation of the schools  by the Roman Catholic Church which is not yet forthcoming.  (The RC Church operated more residential schools than any other denomination;  the Anglican Church operated the second most.)  None of the denominations' higher authorities demanded sufficient accountability from the operators on-the-ground to prevent the mental, physical, and sex abuse that took place.

Can you give me a link to a story about the recovered remains? I'd be interested in seeing it. As I said the story just seemed to vanish into nowhere.

[Fëanor]

Can you give me a link to a story about the recovered remains? I'd be interested in seeing it. As I said the story just seemed to vanish into nowhere.

So for example this CBC story re. Manitoba residential schools, fairly recent as of May 22nd ... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/residential-school-site-ground-searches-1.6468557

Of course, coverage was most intense earlier after the first sizeable locations of unmarked graves.

[DizzyD]

So for example this CBC story re. Manitoba residential schools, fairly recent as of May 22nd ... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/residential-school-site-ground-searches-1.6468557

Of course, coverage was most intense earlier after the first sizeable locations of unmarked graves.

Yes, that's the sort of story that dropped out of sight, and they mentioned forthcoming explorations and exhumations. I wonder if those were done. My understanding is that the initial stories were based on sort of sonar explorations of the ground along with tribal traditions.

[Todd]

...and the establishment of slavery. Just sayin'.

There is evidence of slavery during prehistory.  It exists today as well.  I am not certain that there is a correlation between slavery and religion based on available evidence.

[DizzyD]

...
Note that I never said that all religious people are bad, nor religion in general, (though the thought has crossed my mind).

Well after the initial reports last year I remember reading of many Canadian churches being burned, so I guess we can't count on the innate goodness of the non-religious either. I think Solzhenitsyn was on target here:

"Ideology - that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes, so that he won't hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors."

Since we're supposed to be talking about American polities, my understanding is that similar, compulsory residential schools existed in the USA, at least in some areas.  If I'm wrong please let me know.

I'm sure there were, but I don't know their history unfortunately. It's undeniable that the treatment of native Americans was abominable.

[Herman]

Most schools are at 60-40 (female to male percentages) and within the next few years it will be predicted to be 70-30 and some colleges are already there.

That's a bad trend.

By then the entire USA will be Surf City, with "two girls for every boy".

Prophetic Beach Boys song!

[greg]

All Lives Matter is best illustrated by a cartoon I saw where someone holding a hose is declaring that all houses matter when only one of the houses is on fire.

Black Lives Matter is not claiming, and has never claimed, that non-black lives don't matter. We say that black lives matter because the value of white lives was never in question in the first place.

I've seen that before.
This is the problem. First of all, slogans suck.
Second of all, people are seeing different points. Because slogans leave out a lot of information. Because they suck.
The problem with that analogy is that it's entirely missing the point by ignoring the greater problems of everyone else. Obviously not only black people's houses are on fire.

So we can acknowledge that demographic does have the biggest struggle, but we don't need to trivialize the struggle of everyone else. That is what the pushback against All Lives Matter does. Anyone can have some of the same issues, with police, for example.

Also the whole generalizing thing is just nasty. The oppression olympics is only going to reduce empathy in the long run. Not only are we constantly generalizing with that type of language, ignoring the individual, but it also always involve a dismissal of others whose oppression numbers don't score highest.

The point was: paid work equals fire fighting.
Women aren't good fire fighters due to lack of muscle.
Women better stay home.

I see we are doing some obvious trolling today. 

I didn't see Greg's nonsense about firefighters before.  Women started becoming firefighters decades ago.  All firefighters, regardless of gender, must pass the CPAT.

They need to demonstrate the following items, or they are not going into a burning building:

So Greg's hypothetical has no basis on reality.

You're looking at it too specifically lol. (wasn't trying to accurately match real world examples, purely just trying to get the idea out there as quickly as possible)
I just ripped it off of an old idea I've heard in school before. I had a quiz before, and my teacher marked a question wrong: "Is a woman who is not strong enough to operate the hose not being allowed as a firefighter considered discrimination?" (not the exact wording, this was over like 12 years ago). Me and my friend wrote "no" and were both really confused why it was marked wrong.
(i do remember my teacher mentioning that she subscribed to more old school feminism or whatever, which would explain the thought process. But not a big deal, she was alright).

[SimonNZ]

(wasn't trying to accurately match real world examples, purely just trying to get the idea out there as quickly as possible)

Then try giving us actual real-world examples. If you can't do that then start asking yourself if you've been worrying about something that isn't a real problem.

And stop listening to the "sources" who made you believe it was.

And you're wasting everybody's time having us disprove this nonsense to you that you're now trying to duck rather than just admitting you were uninformed or misinformed..