USA Politics (redux)

[Madiel]

The problem with that analogy is that it's entirely missing the point by ignoring the greater problems of everyone else. Obviously not only black people's houses are on fire.

...

So we can acknowledge that demographic does have the biggest struggle, but we don't need to trivialize the struggle of everyone else.
That is what the pushback against All Lives Matter does. Anyone can have some of the same issues, with police, for example.

Everyone else's greater problems... but the biggest struggle... but trivalizing...

There is not a "pushback" against All Lives Matter. All Lives Matter was the pushback. It was the pushback against actually acknowledging which demographic has a bigger struggle. Your complaint is that people have reacted negatively to a slogan that was expressly designed to disclaim the power of the original slogan.

George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. Please explain what problem is greater than being killed. There are plenty of other cases of black people dying at the hands of police which I don't consider murder but which certainly involve fairly profound levels of recklessness.

Do only black people die at the hands of police? No. But they die disproportionately. And that was my point to you: the relative value of white lives wasn't in question in the first place. Black Lives Matter arose because there was a history of not regarding the loss of black lives as being as significant as the loss of white lives. A history of accepting a rate of black deaths that would be completely unacceptable if white lives were lost at the same rate.

And the slogan All Lives Matter was intended to erase that disparity, to say once again that the disparity didn't matter.

Black Lives Matter doesn't trivialise anyone's struggle, not least because it isn't about "struggle". It's about death. I don't know what problem you think is greater than death. And the fundamental issue is that the life expectancy of one race is lower.

[Herman]

Black Lives Matter doesn't trivialise anyone's struggle, not least because it isn't about "struggle". It's about death. I don't know what problem you think is greater than death. And the fundamental issue is that the life expectancy of one race is lower.

Please make that 'violent death'.

However, you're talking to a giant void.

You're looking at it too specifically lol. (wasn't trying to accurately match real world examples, purely just trying to get the idea out there as quickly as possible)
I just ripped it off of an old idea I've heard in school before.

[Madiel]

Violent death in particular, yes.

[Karl Henning]

you're now trying to duck rather than just admitting you were uninformed or misinformed.

And that is greg through and through.

[DavidW]

Everyone else's greater problems... but the biggest struggle... but trivalizing...

There is not a "pushback" against All Lives Matter. All Lives Matter was the pushback. It was the pushback against actually acknowledging which demographic has a bigger struggle. Your complaint is that people have reacted negatively to a slogan that was expressly designed to disclaim the power of the original slogan.

George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. Please explain what problem is greater than being killed. There are plenty of other cases of black people dying at the hands of police which I don't consider murder but which certainly involve fairly profound levels of recklessness.

Do only black people die at the hands of police? No. But they die disproportionately. And that was my point to you: the relative value of white lives wasn't in question in the first place. Black Lives Matter arose because there was a history of not regarding the loss of black lives as being as significant as the loss of white lives. A history of accepting a rate of black deaths that would be completely unacceptable if white lives were lost at the same rate.

And the slogan All Lives Matter was intended to erase that disparity, to say once again that the disparity didn't matter.

Black Lives Matter doesn't trivialise anyone's struggle, not least because it isn't about "struggle". It's about death. I don't know what problem you think is greater than death. And the fundamental issue is that the life expectancy of one race is lower.

That is very well said.  If anyone else comes in here whining that "all lives matter" you should just quote this post.

It reminds me of an appropriate quote: "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

[Karl Henning]

That is very well said.  If anyone else comes in here whining that "all lives matter" you should just quote this post.

It reminds me of an appropriate quote: "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Practically the MAGA theme song.

[DizzyD]

...
Black Lives Matter doesn't trivialise anyone's struggle, not least because it isn't about "struggle". It's about death. I don't know what problem you think is greater than death. And the fundamental issue is that the life expectancy of one race is lower.

I'm sure there are some very well-meaning and good-hearted people involved in BLM, but unfortunately that is starting to smell like a massive grift.

[Karl Henning]

I'm sure there are some very well-meaning and good-hearted people involved in BLM, but unfortunately that is starting to smell like a massive grift.

Worth separating the cause from any titular organization, I think.

[milk]

Do only black people die at the hands of police? No. But they die disproportionately.

This is unclear and depends on whom you ask, of course. According to Roland Fryer's research, blacks are indeed stopped disproportionately and more likely to experience disproportionate force, but not more likely to be shot than whites in a given interaction with cops. Of course his work has been criticized and defended. Pretty much any statistics are going to get different interpretations.
Here's the conservative Manhattan Institute:

"On-duty police fatally shoot about 1,000 people every year. This number and its racial breakdown have remained remarkably steady since 2015. The overall Post tally has ranged from a low of 958 in 2016, to a "record" of 1,055 in 2021 (reported as this paper went to press), with any pattern difficult to distinguish from random chance."

"Approximately a quarter of those killed are black. This is roughly double the black share of the overall population, but it is in line with—and sometimes below—many other "bench-marks" that one might use for comparison, such as the racial breakdowns of arrests, murders, and violent-crime offenders as reported by victims in surveys."

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/verbruggen-fatal-police-shootings

My question for you is: Could you be wrong in your interpretation? If you ask me the same question, well, first I'd have to give you mine. It is that the situation is unclear. There's definitely racism. It's not everywhere and in everything and not apparent in many of the cases people have protested (Atlanta, Kenosha). But I'm not surprised if racism is a serious problem in some situations. Plus, this atmosphere created by BLM and these protests could have made crime worse in black neighborhoods if cops pull back. This is something Fryer has studied somewhere (I'll have to look for a link) - I believe in Ferguson.

(I did find a bunch of links, from The Atlantic to the WSJ. Here's the Manhattan again. I know it's conservative but it has no firewall. You can read about Fryer's study at least: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/verbruggen-depolicing-alternatives)

However, I may be getting this wrong. BLM may actually go down as a group that really did help the country overall. For me, I'm a bit in the fence in that the greater awareness of how police treat people (and minority people) has got to produce some good somewhere. At the moment, I kind of feel like all these protesters would do a million times more for everyone by just getting involved in programs to help reach young people in at-risk places or situations - stuff like that.

[DizzyD]

Worth separating the cause from any titular organization, I think.

Well religion isn't usually given that kind of a break though.

[Karl Henning]

Well religion isn't usually given that kind of a break though.

Religion is typically the establishment, hardly the "victim."

[Johnnie Burgess]

Religion is typically the establishment, hardly the "victim."

Ask Muslims in China about that.

[DizzyD]

Religion is typically the establishment, hardly the "victim."

Define "establishment". In the US it's such things as the mainstream media, the government bureaucracy and academia. Those are hardly bastions of religion.

[Karl Henning]

Define "establishment". In the US it's such things as the mainstream media, the government bureaucracy and academia. Those are hardly bastions of religion.

I'm the music director for a parish of the United Methodist Church. You don't think this church is an establishment? Even apart from the red herrings in your post, your q. puzzles me.

[DizzyD]

I'm the music director for a parish of the United Methodist Church. You don't think this church is an establishment? Even apart from the red herrings in your post, your q. puzzles me.

It's AN establishment, not THE establishment. The neighborhood bar is also AN establishment. It's not my red herring, as I'm merely replying to yours.

[Karl Henning]

It's AN establishment, not THE establishment. The neighborhood bar is also AN establishment. It's not my red herring, as I'm merely replying to yours.

I see. Point provisionally taken.

[Karl Henning]

Well religion isn't usually given that kind of a break though.

How do you feel religion has "suffered" in this regard?

[DizzyD]

How do you feel religion has "suffered" in this regard?

I didn't say it has. I said religion, particularly Christianity, isn't given the benefit of separating title from intentions in the way that you suggested should be done in the case of BLM. If religion has "suffered" at all it's in the characterization of the whole on the basis of the wrongdoers contained within it, e.g. the Catholic church and pedophile priests, or Protestantism and grifting televangelists. I can also include Islam and radical terrorists, but branding Islam in that way is more outlier or rather "outsider" than Establishment.

In addition, churches/religions weren't founded just a few years ago with an essentially clean slate. BLM was.

[BasilValentine]

Worth separating the cause from any titular organization, I think.

Exactly. The vast majority of protesters had no affiliation with or connection to any organization. They weren't BLM, they were just people who believe that black lives matter. But of course racists need a pretext to defame by alleged association.

[DizzyD]

Exactly. The vast majority of protesters had no affiliation with or connection to any organization. They weren't BLM, they were just people who believe that black lives matter. But of course racist a$$holes need a pretext to defame by alleged association.

Not to belabor the point, but are you suggesting that association with BLM is defamation? If so, you've pretty much demonstrated my point from earlier.

And with that I withdraw from discussing politics any further.