USA Politics (redux)

[DizzyD]

I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that the mass shooters in the U.S. are almost always white.  I'm not talking about street crime shootings or shots between rival gangs, rather the firing indiscriminately from a rooftop or entering a classroom and slaughtering kids with gunfire.  In this regard whites seem to have the monopoly on "crazy".

Not really a monopoly.

"Between 1982 and July 2022, 70 out of the 132 mass shootings in the United States were carried out by white shooters. By comparison, the perpetrator was African American in 21 mass shootings, and Latino in 11. When calculated as percentages, this amounts to 53 percent, 16 percent, and eight percent respectively."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

The shooter at Uvalde was Latino. The shooter at Parkland had been adopted by a Latino family. I don't know what his biological "race" is. The shooter in the Pulse nightclub case was of Afghan background. It's more interesting to me that these crimes are almost exclusively committed by males.

[Fëanor]

And none of this {see Feanor} engages with Fryer, Loury, McWhorter, etc. there's also this vicious circle of liberals telling each other the same narratives and never engaging outside their bubbles. This is not to say that some of what you list isn't obviously, painfully obviously, true. Just that you don't take up points out of your comfort zone. Glenn Loury is going to say that you deny black people agency and responsibility. He's also going to say that you're also going to get a different view on this if you visit a church basement in an inner city, if you talk to family of children killed by the bullet of a gangbanger (since you seem to imply that black victims of crime are part of some sort of mirage) I don't give an answer. I just feel more and more inclined to admit a wider circle of views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFXT2dIQXJg

So you are taking it further than I said, (above), and I'm substantially agreeing.  You suggest Loury would say that I "deny black people agency and responsibility":  if it seemed that way I wasn't my intent.  My main message was there is a long history of circumstances behind the current situation of on-going discrimination towards Blacks.

A long history indeed and it isn't going to be remedied in a year or a decade.  Black people are going need to take a major role in that change.  What is the nature of that change?  It won't just be whining and protesting mistreatment, (though the will be a part of it).  It will require that Blacks step up and adapt their American subculture to the diverse, broader American reality and indeed, international reality.  As some Black Americans have said, Black communities in America need to put more value on education, work ethic, and family values.  (It seems to me that the success of Asians in American is because they are more developed in these regards.)  It won't be sufficient to demand respect of other American, the respect must also be earned.

[LKB]

So you are taking it further than I said, (above), and I'm substantially agreeing.  You suggest Loury would say that I "deny black people agency and responsibility":  if it seemed that way I wasn't my intent.  My main message was there is a long history of circumstances behind the current situation of on-going discrimination towards Blacks.

A long history indeed and it isn't going to be remedied in a year or a decade.  Black people are going need to take a major role in that change.  What is the nature of that change?  It won't just be whining and protesting mistreatment, (though the will be a part of it).  It will require that Blacks step up and adapt their American subculture to the diverse, broader American reality and indeed, international reality.  As some Black Americans have said, Black communities in America need to put more value on education, work ethic, and family values.  (It seems to me that the success of Asians in American is because they are more developed in these regards.)  It won't be sufficient to demand respect of other American, the respect must also be earned.

+1

[Karl Henning]

I hope I may be forgiven for querying (rhetorically) isn't that what we've seen from Trumpworld for years? Id est, whining white people who demand respect without the bother of earning it?

[DizzyD]

I hope I may be forgiven for querying (rhetorically) isn't that what we've seen from Trumpworld for years? Id est, whining white people who demand respect without the bother of earning it?

It looks like there's not much respect for much of anything, and it ain't just "Trumpworld". Confidence in TV news: 11%. In Congress: 7%.

"Americans are less confident in major U.S. institutions than they were a year ago, with significant declines for 11 of the 16 institutions tested and no improvements for any. The largest declines in confidence are 11 percentage points for the Supreme Court -- as reported in late June before the court issued controversial rulings on gun laws and abortion -- and 15 points for the presidency, matching the 15-point drop in President Joe Biden's job approval rating since the last confidence survey in June 2021."

https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-down-average-new-low.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication

[Madiel]

Um, ya think? Why don't you reply to someone who's making those arguments? Not that I've noticed anyone around here in particular. I will offer you this advice: go watch Glenn Loury, noted black Professor of economics at Brown university, and John McWhorter, famous linguist at Columbia (and also black), discuss these issues in a short video (see below). They will articulate the opinions I've offered up but much more clearly and pointedly. I guess this will shock you. Then, comment on their videos. Accuse them of not knowing about racism (and maybe accuse them of being racist) and see what kind of reaction you get over there. I just want to see it. Please let us know afterwards and link us to it so we can see how the conversation went. I'm sure it'll be popcorn worthy.
Try this one (11:55):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFXT2dIQXJg

You seem to have completely misunderstood the point of why I was saying it, and frankly I don't see the point of pursuing this discussion any further because the amount of time it will take is excessive given the progress in the discussion that will occur.

We aren't nearly as far apart on this as you seem to think. But the issue is one of emphasis. You seem very interested in explaining why black people die at the hands of police and emphasising how this isn't particularly due to anything the police are doing (though whether American police are poor on this in general compared to police in other countries, that's a whole OTHER question).

I'm more interested in pointing out that it's a bad outcome regardless of exactly why it's happening, and needs solving regardless. You can push the causal explanation back 2, 3, even 5 steps. You still haven't changed the acknowledged fact that black people are dying at a higher rate in encounters with police. Is this because they encounter police more often? Solve that. Is THIS because there's more crime in black neighbourhoods? Solve THAT.

At some point you either reach the endpoint of saying "that's just how black people are" or you reach a point where you identify a situation that's causing poorer outcomes for black people. Given your rejection of the proposition that black people are just going to be like this, you're left with the second option. That was my point. If we say it's not the fault of police, if we say it's not this that or the other... at SOME point you have to arrive at a problem that's worth taking responsibility for and fixing.

[DizzyD]

Is this because they encounter police more often? Solve that. Is THIS because there's more crime in black neighbourhoods? Solve THAT.

Yes to both, probably. "Solve that" how? Great Society and War on Poverty Redux? That mindset played a huge part in creating the present situation.
It's undeniable that cops are too trigger-happy and shoot to kill when there's really no reason. Another case I came across that I had never heard about before last night is the 2015 case of a 59 year old white guy named David Kassick in PA (q.v.). The officer involved was found not guilty of murder. There may very well be evil white cops out there itching to blow away any black suspect they come across, but I think such officers are fortunately very very rare.

[SimonNZ]

Very interesting video. Speaking of McWhorter, I also like his takedown of "hip hop culture" from nearly 20 years ago.

"At 2 AM on the New York subway not long ago, I saw another scene—more dispiriting than my KFC encounter with the rowdy rapping teens—that captures the essence of rap's destructiveness. A young black man entered the car and began to rap loudly—profanely, arrogantly—with the usual wild gestures. This went on for five irritating minutes. When no one paid attention, he moved on to another car, all the while spouting his doggerel. This was what this young black man presented as his message to the world—his oratory, if you will.

Anyone who sees such behavior as a path to a better future—anyone, like Professor Dyson, who insists that hip-hop is an urgent "critique of a society that produces the need for the thug persona"—should step back and ask himself just where, exactly, the civil rights–era blacks might have gone wrong in lacking a hip-hop revolution. They created the world of equality, striving, and success I live and thrive in.

Hip-hop creates nothing."

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-hip-hop-holds-blacks-back-12442.html

If you want to get to root causes of disparities, you might also look into the cultural milieu that more or less glorifies that attitude and lifestyle. It's a little more complex than "because racism, duh".

A huge amount of white popular culture is the glorification of violence or living outside the law.

A huge amount of white music is "doggerel"

[DizzyD]

A huge amount of white popular culture is the glorification of violence or living outside the law.

A huge amount of white music is "doggerel"

So what if it is? Does that kind of whataboutism invalidate the point?

[Madiel]

So what if it is? Does that kind of whataboutism invalidate the point?

Well yes, it obviously does invalidate the point. Taking black doggerel as emblematic of black culture while not taking white doggerel as emblematic of white culture is basically a racist selection bias.

[DizzyD]

Well yes, it obviously does invalidate the point. Taking black doggerel as emblematic of black culture while not taking white doggerel as emblematic of white culture is basically a racist selection bias.

I don't think anything was said about it being "emblematic". I think the question was one of influence and attitude. In fact what he's saying is that it *isn't* "emblematic". "White doggerel" is a red herring. There's nothing in what he wrote saying that white "pop culture" is superior. But I'd agree that something like the nihilism of punk rock is detrimental too, but that hasn't been a thing since what, the 80s? Actually the nihilistic tinge of today's "white" pop culture has been criticized as well. Nobody's saying it shouldn't be or that it's "better".

[Madiel]

I don't think anything was said about it being "emblematic". I think the question was one of influence and attitude. In fact what he's saying is that it *isn't* "emblematic". "White doggerel" is a red herring. There's nothing in what he wrote saying that white "pop culture" is superior.

So wait, there's a story about a single black man, which is spun into a wider discussion about such behaviour... and you don't think it's being used to symbolise blacks?

Interesting interpretative world you live in. Because I'd love to see what you would think if the story about the lousy individual simply wasn't there at the start. What is the POINT of that individual story, if not to get too to agree with a proposition about black people more generally?

Or is it just that you don't understand what "emblematic" means?

[DizzyD]

So wait, there's a story about a single black man, which is spun into a wider discussion about such behaviour... and you don't think it's being used to symbolise blacks?

Interesting interpretative world you live in. Because I'd love to see what you would think if the story about the lousy individual simply wasn't there at the start. What is the POINT of that individual story, if not to get too to agree with a proposition about black people more generally?

Take it up with the author. As the commenter above said, I'd love to see it. Anyway isn't it pretty standard to do the same with racist attitudes? And where, pray tell, does it say anywhere in the article that hip hop is emblematic of black culture? And where, pray tell, is it said that "white" pop culture is somehow "better"?

[SimonNZ]

That was quite clearly implied.

[DizzyD]

That was quite clearly implied.

So nowhere, then. Thanks.

[Madiel]

Take it up with the author. As the commenter above said, I'd love to see it. Anyway isn't it pretty standard to do the same with racist attitudes? And where, pray tell, does it say anywhere in the article that hip hop is emblematic of black culture? And where, pray tell, is it said that "white" pop culture is somehow "better"?

Do you understand what the word emblematic means?

It doesn't mean "an ideal to aspire to".

The problem with the article is that the proposition that black people don't live up to black ideals is not made true by including the word "black" in there.

If hip hop is NOT representative of black culture, then thoughts on hip hop are completely irrelevant.

[DizzyD]

Do you understand what the word emblematic means?

It doesn't mean "an ideal to aspire to".

The problem with the article is that the proposition that black people don't live up to black ideals is not made true by including the word "black" in there.

Yeah, professor, I know what emblematic means. How's your reading comprehension? McWhorter's point in that article is that hip hop culture is a blight on and a drag on black culture. Can you see the distinction? Hip hop culture is not synonymous with black culture, which is what he appeals to in the peroration of that piece.

[Madiel]

Yeah, professor, I know what emblematic means. How's your reading comprehension? McWhorter's point in that article is that hip hop culture is a blight on and a drag on black culture. Can you see the distinction? Hip hop culture is not synonymous with black culture, which is what he appeals to in the peroration of that piece.

Right. So black culture has to stop liking its bad bits in order to be better. Whereas white culture... well somehow white culture is getting by okay and coping with its drag. Or it just doesn't HAVE any drag.

The fact that you can't see the racism involved in this prescription is fascinating. Not least because picking some random guy as the symbol of hip hop, rather than the best and most powerful artists, is stunning selection bias.

[DizzyD]

Right. So black culture has to stop liking its bad bits in order to be better. Whereas white culture... well somehow white culture is getting by okay and coping with its drag. Or it just doesn't HAVE any drag.
...

Where is that even implied? That's your imagination. Not everything is this black vs white system of values. He wasn't talking about "white culture", but his own. He might have a better handle on it than you do, assuming you're not black.

[Madiel]

It's pretty fucking obvious that if BLACK PEOPLE thought this rapper was any good, then he wouldn't be going from car to car on the subway.

So bringing him up is pointless. Right? He doesn't mean ANYTHING about anyone other than himself.

At which point the whole narrative collapses into an irrelevancy of one white guy who didn't like the rap of one black guy. Only the white guy has a bigger platform and can get you to quote him.

You keep asking for literal quotes, where does he say X. The question is rather the purpose of saying ANY of it.