Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?

Started by Mirror Image, November 22, 2020, 01:35:59 PM

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Should politics be banned from GMG?

Yes
12 (35.3%)
No
22 (64.7%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: November 22, 2021, 01:35:59 PM

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 05:10:56 PM
Can a longer serving member than me say if there was a problem with political threads before 2015?

Well, I've been here since 2003, and I have actually spent time in the politics threads. What I would say is that they have always been contentious. George W. Bush was divisive in his own way, even if it was because of having Cheyney by his side. And stuff was happening at the time, you can't overlook that. It's not like assholery was invented yesterday.

In my memory, the political threads are actually no more contentious now than they have ever been, but they are 10X busier. To the point where they overwhelm a lot of whatever else is going on. Do I expect things to diminish after January 20th? Yes, I do. Will there always be rancor over political beliefs? Well, my wise old father told me many years ago "son, if you want to get along in the world, never discuss religion or politics". Nothing i have seen since then makes him out to be wrong.  :-\

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Mirror Image

I would just like to thank Rob, the moderators and the members who have responded to this thread. I certainly can understand both arguments regardless of whether one is 'right' or 'wrong'. As several members have pointed out, I'm hoping all of this will blow over. Of course, the votes speak for themselves with the majority of members here not being too concerned about the political threads and voting not to ban them. I left this poll open for a year (or less), but I think by the end of the month, I'll lock the voting as I think by that point everyone who is a frequent contributor here will have been able to vote.

knight66

Someone asked whether there were conflicts before the 2015 political threads turned up.

Yes, vociferous ones. On the old site we went through a long phase of great acrimony about religion. I used to refer to them as the Religious Wars. One ex-member, Pink Harp, used to introduce controversial subjects, one was whether prostitution should be legalised. And there was a lot of conflict on music topics, Pelleas and Melisande anybody? The worst that I recall was an extended firefight about Haydn chamber music. Saul, that name will make a few here shudder. He could have caused a fight in an empty topic, musical, political, religious, ethnic.

I could go on.

Where people of strongly held opinions come together there are often outbursts. We have been through some swings and roundabouts of moderation starting with basically next to no censorship and the mods spending what felt like most of our spare time writing behind the scenes to try and persuade a few troublemakers to change the wording in their posts: to clamping down too much. The latter caused a general turpitude, the site was becalmed, dull frankly.

I don't like the politics thread, but the forum needs somewhere that people can let off steam somewhat. I think that is important and it tends to take pressure off the music threads. As has been said, it is simple to avoid threads you are not interested in. I can't stand the rash of one, two or three word topics, but as they don't seem to cause trouble, I ignore them.

Rob suggests new people be prevented from posting in the Diner, but that damages the possibility of new people bonding. Someone has suggested we hive-off politics. Well, what is really meant here is American Politics. The Brexit topic has not needed much moderation. The world is full of politics and we have members from large swathes of it. So the problem thread is US politics. I am not keen on a Restricted Area, like a club within a club. I think we learn how to cope with ups and downs with each other, continue to more closely moderate that topic and I recommend we permanently ban any member who over an extended period posts more or less exclusively in the US politics thread.

The rules of that thread are clear and we don't get into discussions with people, material will be deleted. Someone suggested that was pointless. I disagree.material is deleted and many posters remain unaware that there had been a problem or action taken. It also means those possibly personal insults are not there to be subsequently read by, for example, new members.

Knight
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: knight66 on November 24, 2020, 12:38:40 AM
Someone asked whether there were conflicts before the 2015 political threads turned up.

Yes, vociferous ones. On the old site we went through a long phase of great acrimony about religion. I used to refer to them as the Religious Wars. One ex-member, Pink Harp, used to introduce controversial subjects, one was whether prostitution should be legalised. And there was a lot of conflict on music topics, Pelleas and Melisande anybody? The worst that I recall was an extended firefight about Haydn chamber music. Saul, that name will make a few here shudder. He could have caused a fight in an empty topic, musical, political, religious, ethnic.

I could go on.

Where people of strongly held opinions come together there are often outbursts. We have been through some swings and roundabouts of moderation starting with basically next to no censorship and the mods spending what felt like most of our spare time writing behind the scenes to try and persuade a few troublemakers to change the wording in their posts: to clamping down too much. The latter caused a general turpitude, the site was becalmed, dull frankly.

I don't like the politics thread, but the forum needs somewhere that people can let off steam somewhat. I think that is important and it tends to take pressure off the music threads. As has been said, it is simple to avoid threads you are not interested in. I can't stand the rash of one, two or three word topics, but as they don't seem to cause trouble, I ignore them.

Rob suggests new people be prevented from posting in the Diner, but that damages the possibility of new people bonding. Someone has suggested we hive-off politics. Well, what is really meant here is American Politics. The Brexit topic has not needed much moderation. The world is full of politics and we have members from large swathes of it. So the problem thread is US politics. I am not keen on a Restricted Area, like a club within a club. I think we learn how to cope with ups and downs with each other, continue to more closely moderate that topic and I recommend we permanently ban any member who over an extended period posts more or less exclusively in the US politics thread.

The rules of that thread are clear and we don't get into discussions with people, material will be deleted. Someone suggested that was pointless. I disagree, material is deleted and many posters remain unaware that there had been a problem or action taken. It also means those possibly personal insults are not there to be subsequently read by, for example, new members.

Knight

Ditto.
8)

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 08:22:36 PM
I would just like to thank Rob, the moderators and the members who have responded to this thread. I certainly can understand both arguments regardless of whether one is 'right' or 'wrong'. As several members have pointed out, I'm hoping all of this will blow over. Of course, the votes speak for themselves with the majority of members here not being too concerned about the political threads and voting not to ban them. I left this poll open for a year (or less), but I think by the end of the month, I'll lock the voting as I think by that point everyone who is a frequent contributor here will have been able to vote.

Well, these things need to be aired out from time to time. Not weekly, mind you, but sometimes we need to step back and see what effect our actions have had. All of us, that is, not just the Mods. Most of our actions are just reactions, after all. But in this case we have been modestly proactive, so self-assessment is needed. True, we could be even stricter, but I think one reaches a point of diminishing returns with that. We'll see how it continues. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Herman

I should think the USA politics topic will get calmer as the new year begins.

And should Trump find some other pursuits for the remainder of his years (whether it be a tv show or an endless stream of lawsuits) things will never get as heated as around this election.

Of course the funny thing is some of the most heated posters aren't even 'Mericans.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Herman on November 24, 2020, 09:46:24 AM
[snip]....Of course the funny thing is some of the most heated posters aren't even 'Mericans.

Ah, you noticed that, eh?! I realize the actions of the elephant in the room affect all occupants, but sometimes I just gotta laugh when it gets OTT!  :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Florestan

Quote from: Herman on November 24, 2020, 09:46:24 AM
Of course the funny thing is some of the most heated posters aren't even 'Mericans.

There is a Dutch guy whose name I can't remember right now...  :D
Why should be elite, music? Excuse me. Music must be for everybody. — Luciano Pavarotti

MusicTurner

One newspaper commentator in my country noticed the incredible fact, that more or less the whole world has been fixated on - and influenced by - the moods and psychology of a single individual on a daily basis, for almost 4 years.

Florestan

#88
Quote from: MusicTurner on November 24, 2020, 10:35:55 AM
One newspaper commentator in my country noticed the incredible fact, that more or less the whole world has been fixated on - and influenced by - the moods and psychology of a single individual on a daily basis, for almost 4 years.

I've made this very point a few months ago in the old political thread, adding that it's abnormal that people, especially non-Americans, obsessively fixate day in, day out on what Trump does says and twitters, to the point of losing their sleep and peace of mind. I was rebuked for not caring about the fate of the world or for underestimating / downplaying Trump's capacity of negatively impacting it --- as if incessant handwringing and complaining on an inconsequential internet board were going to change either Trump's behavior or the fate of the world.

Anyway, I too think that after January 20 the whole kerfuffle will gradually subside, both in the world at large and here.
Why should be elite, music? Excuse me. Music must be for everybody. — Luciano Pavarotti

MusicTurner

Quote from: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
I've made this very point a few months ago on the old political thread, adding that it's abnormal that people, especially non-Americans, obsessively fixate day in, day out on what Trump does says and twitters, to the point of losing their sleep and peace of mind. I was rebuked for not caring about the fate of the world or for underestimating / downplaying Trump's capacity of negatively impacting it --- as if incessant handwringing and complaining on an inconsequential internet board were going to change either Trump's behavior or the fate of the world.

Anyway, I too think that after January 20 the whole kerfuffle will gradually subside, both in the world at large and here.

The commentator pointed to the fixation as a 'quality' with Trump, that somehow showed a genius aspect of him - seeing that opening for getting such attention.

Scion7

This is all I have to say on this matter:

Right!  Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, because some moistened bimp had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!


                             https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want


When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Scion7 on November 25, 2020, 04:45:37 AM
This is all I have to say on this matter:

Right!  Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, because some moistened bimp had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!



                             https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want

One of my favorite all-time movie scenes. :D  "I didn't know you were called Dennis..."  ;D

Anyway, yes, mandate from the masses!

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Florestan

From here:

https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want

I got this gem:

Republic supports a non-partisan head of state who is not involved in making political decisions or running the government.

Iow, Republic supports a constitutional monarchy. Three cheers for Republic, whoever or whatever they are!   ;D
Why should be elite, music? Excuse me. Music must be for everybody. — Luciano Pavarotti

Florestan

Quote from: Scion7 on November 25, 2020, 04:45:37 AM
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses

Don't know where this quote is taken from but it sounds like Mein Kampf to me.  ;D
Why should be elite, music? Excuse me. Music must be for everybody. — Luciano Pavarotti

Karl Henning

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2020, 08:48:23 AM
One of my favorite all-time movie scenes. :D  "I didn't know you were called Dennis..."  ;D

Anyway, yes, mandate from the masses!

8)


Oh, King, eh? Very nice.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 09:15:34 AM
Don't know where this quote is taken from but it sounds like Mein Kampf to me.  ;D

Try Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It's an easier listen, and almost as funny. ;)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Florestan

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2020, 09:38:38 AM
Try Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It's an easier listen, and almost as funny. ;)

Somehow I never got to listen to any Monty Python. I imagine I miss a lot.

But seriously, that Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses could have been subscribed by any number of modern dictators. Ceaușescu, for instance, always claimed he was ruling on behalf of, and for, the working class which mandated him to do so at each and every nationwide congress the Communist Party held periodically.  ;D
Why should be elite, music? Excuse me. Music must be for everybody. — Luciano Pavarotti

MN Dave

Certain members should be banned, but never politics. Religion definitely though.

:laugh:
"The effect of music is so very much more powerful and penetrating than is that of the other arts, for these others speak only of the shadow, but music of the essence." — Arthur Schopenhauer

Florestan

Quote from: MN Dave on November 25, 2020, 12:23:49 PM
Certain members should be banned, but never politics. Religion definitely though.

:laugh:

On GMG there are theists, agnostics and atheists. Can you please show me one single thread dealing with religion that was started by someone self-identified as theist or agnostic?
Why should be elite, music? Excuse me. Music must be for everybody. — Luciano Pavarotti

MN Dave

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:35:49 PM
Can you please show me one single thread dealing with religion that was started by someone self-identified as theist or agnostic?

It's possible.
"The effect of music is so very much more powerful and penetrating than is that of the other arts, for these others speak only of the shadow, but music of the essence." — Arthur Schopenhauer