Music based on dissonant sonorities.

Started by Uhor, December 02, 2020, 12:19:54 PM

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Mandryka

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2020, 09:54:52 AM
. An intelligent conversation could never be had with someone who likes everything they hear.

Why not? I mean, you could discuss the music.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mandryka on December 05, 2020, 10:03:38 AM
Why not? I mean, you could discuss the music.

Because you'll never get to the root of what that person is about musically. To like everything would imply that they are content listening to Andre Rieu as much as they are listening to Hilary Hahn. If this person doesn't know the difference between either, then I have very little time for them.

Mandryka

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2020, 10:08:57 AM
Because you'll never get to the root of what that person is about musically. To like everything would imply that they are content listening to Andre Rieu as much as they are listening to Hilary Hahn. If this person doesn't know the difference between either, then I have very little time for them.

No that's not right, he may be content listening to both for different reasons. That's the basis for an intelligent discussion.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

#23
Quote from: Mandryka on December 05, 2020, 10:12:21 AM
No that's not right, he may be content listening to both for different reasons. That's the basis for an intelligent discussion.

I don't care. :-\ If I don't know what a person likes/dislikes, then I have no reason to talk to them. I'll further add that I like knowing what a person likes/dislikes as this helps me see how I can carry on a conversation with them and tap into what they're passionate about.

Florestan

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2020, 09:54:52 AM
Yeah, I guess it was, but I seldom read some guy's posts. Not because I think he's a bad person, I just don't like this 'all-encompassing' vibe he puts across in his posts or, at least, to me he does. An intelligent conversation could never be had with someone who likes everything they hear. Our limitations as listeners define us even more than what we actually do like and enjoy. It's what makes us who we are.

Oh, I certainly and wholeheartedly do agree. And now that you got me started, here's my two cents.

1. The complete, absolute and uncompromising objectivity that some guy aspires to in listening to music can be achieved only by someone who doesn't care in the least about what they listen and treat all music as sonic wallpaper --- all is good as long as there are sounds being heard. The very moment someone says "I don't like it!", or "It does nothing for me!", or "I'd rather listen to something else!" objectivity is broken and subjectivity* pops up its ugly head.  ;D

*read personality

2. The only way one could talk about "the music itself" is to state that it is printed by this or that publisher, it ccomprises that many bars, it's written in this or that key or in no key at all, it's intended for such or such combination of instruments and its technicalities are such and such.

The very moment one listens, any notion of "the music itself" vanishes into thin air,  because performing a piece of music is already a subjective thing on the part of the performers: what we listen to is by no means "the music itself" but "the music as performer(s) X" deemed fit to play it. To this unescapable, all-too-human subjectivity we then add our own unescapable, all-too-human subjectivity which makes us prefer this or that music or this or that performance.

3. I see no problem whatsoever with either of the two points above. None of us is under no obligation whatsoever to like, or even to try liking, each and every piece of music we listen to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone finding their comfort zone and staying mostly, or even exclusively, within its boundaries. We all like what we like, period. Our (life)time is in such short supply that it would be foolish to waste it on things musical --- or indeed any other things --- that don't give us either immediate pleasure or the promise of a future pleasure.

In this respect your beloved Debussy was absolutely right:

Music should humbly seek to please; within these limits great beauty may perhaps be found. Extreme complication is contrary to art. Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.

There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law

Notice: immediate enjoyment and pleasure. Amen to that!

4. The only problem arises when some guy someone tries to make their own taste the universal yardstick by which all others should be judged (and usually found wanting).

Raum fuer alle hat die Erde.




Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mirror Image

Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 10:54:49 AM
Oh, I certainly and wholeheartedly do agree. And now that you got me started, here's my two cents.

1. The complete, absolute and uncompromising objectivity that some guy aspires to in listening to music can be achieved only by someone who doesn't care in the least about what they listen and treat all music as sonic wallpaper --- all is good as long as there are sounds being heard. The very moment someone says "I don't like it!", or "It does nothing for me!", or "I'd rather listen to something else!" objectivity is broken and subjectivity* pops up its ugly head.  ;D

*read personality

2. The only way one could talk about "the music itself" is to state that it is printed by this or that publisher, it ccomprises that many bars, it's written in this or that key or in no key at all, it's intended for such or such combination of instruments and its technicalities are such and such.

The very moment one listens, any notion of "the music itself" vanishes into thin air,  because performing a piece of music is already a subjective thing on the part of the performers: what we listen to is by no means "the music itself" but "the music as performer(s) X" deemed fit to play it. To this unescapable, all-too-human subjectivity we then add our own unescapable, all-too-human subjectivity which makes us prefer this or that music or this or that performance.

3. I see no problem whatsoever with either of the two points above. None of us is under no obligation whatsoever to like, or even to try liking, each and every piece of music we listen to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone finding their comfort zone and staying mostly, or even exclusively, within its boundaries. We all like what we like, period. Our (life)time is in such short supply that it would be foolish to waste it on things musical --- or indeed any other things --- that don't give us either immediate pleasure or the promise of a future pleasure.

In this respect your beloved Debussy was absolutely right:

Music should humbly seek to please; within these limits great beauty may perhaps be found. Extreme complication is contrary to art. Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.

There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law

Notice: immediate enjoyment and pleasure. Amen to that!

4. The only problem arises when some guy someone tries to make their own taste the universal yardstick by which all others should be judged (and usually found wanting).

Raum fuer alle hat die Erde.

Some valid points, Andrei. And yes, my man Claude was right, indeed. 8) I understand that you and some guy aren't compadres, so I knew I could count on you for some personal insights into his thinking. ;)

Florestan

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2020, 11:02:42 AM
Some valid points, Andrei. And yes, my man Claude was right, indeed. 8) I understand that you and some guy aren't compadres, so I knew I could count on you for some personal insights into his thinking. ;)

;D

And yet --- as far as I'm concerned there's no reason whatsoever why he and I wouldn't get along just fine should we meet in person, especially after a couple of beers.  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mirror Image

Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 11:19:24 AM
;D

And yet --- as far as I'm concerned there's no reason whatsoever why he and I wouldn't get along just fine should we meet in person, especially after a couple of beers.  :D

Yeah, as I pointed out, I don't think he's a bad person. It's just that his view of music seems alien to me, but this may make grounds for a good musical discussion.

some guy

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2020, 09:54:52 AM
An intelligent conversation could never be had with someone who likes everything they hear.
I disagree.

And I don't like everything I hear, but I do very much try to hear everything as it is rather than how I wish it to be.

some guy

#29
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 10:54:49 AM
The only problem arises when some guy someone tries to make their own taste the universal yardstick by which all others should be judged (and usually found wanting).
And this I have never done.

I have objected from time to time when other people have done it. And that objection has often been interpreted as me trying to make my own taste the universal yardstick.

I'm trying, as you point out yourself elsewhere, to listen beyond my tastes. You can't have it both way. I can't be both trying to make my taste the universal yardstick AND trying to override my own tastes. Those are contradictory positions.

I do like beer, though, I will say that. Also wine and hard liquor. Food. Women. Architecture. Nature. Yep. Lots of taste there. (I've got a long ways to go, I can see that. :-) )

Florestan

Quote from: some guy on December 05, 2020, 03:11:18 PM
I'm trying, as you point out yourself elsewhere, to listen beyond my tastes.

I do that regularly, only to be regularly reminded of Delius' dictum:

Always stick to your likings - there are profound reasons for them;D

QuoteI do like beer, though, I will say that. Also wine and hard liquor.

A man after my own heart!  :-*

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mirror Image

Quote from: some guy on December 05, 2020, 03:02:56 PM
I disagree.

And I don't like everything I hear, but I do very much try to hear everything as it is rather than how I wish it to be.

Who are some composers that you don't like?

some guy

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2020, 05:10:06 PM
Who are some composers that you don't like?
This is the nub of it, I think. I avoid talking about what I don't like because I don't think it does anyone any good. Will my dislikes help anyone enjoy anything any better? Probably not. Will my dislike of any particular composer make anyone suddenly say "Oh. Maybe I should stop listening to that composer." Absurd. Even mentioning a composer or twelve that I don't care for in order to prove that I have both likes and dislikes seems absurd to me. No one has to prove that because it's true for everyone.

The composers I dislike are liked by quite a number of other people. Let them like what they like without any quibbling from me.

I'll mention only one person, someone no one here has ever heard of, so it should be OK: Hubert Howe. I had been hearing pieces of his for a number of years at various festivals, and they all seemed horrible to me. Almost purposely boring. Almost all identical, too, what's more. So once, after a concert, I remarked to a small group of people that for me the question was not "Howe" but why. One person piped up with "I like Howe's music."

That was embarrassing. I don't like Howe's music, but so what? I know at least one person who likes it. It's enough.

Mirror Image

Quote from: some guy on December 05, 2020, 10:53:27 PM
This is the nub of it, I think. I avoid talking about what I don't like because I don't think it does anyone any good. Will my dislikes help anyone enjoy anything any better? Probably not. Will my dislike of any particular composer make anyone suddenly say "Oh. Maybe I should stop listening to that composer." Absurd. Even mentioning a composer or twelve that I don't care for in order to prove that I have both likes and dislikes seems absurd to me. No one has to prove that because it's true for everyone.

The composers I dislike are liked by quite a number of other people. Let them like what they like without any quibbling from me.

I'll mention only one person, someone no one here has ever heard of, so it should be OK: Hubert Howe. I had been hearing pieces of his for a number of years at various festivals, and they all seemed horrible to me. Almost purposely boring. Almost all identical, too, what's more. So once, after a concert, I remarked to a small group of people that for me the question was not "Howe" but why. One person piped up with "I like Howe's music."

That was embarrassing. I don't like Howe's music, but so what? I know at least one person who likes it. It's enough.

Thanks for only reinforcing what Andrei has said about you. This has been an education.

Mandryka

#34
Quote from: Florestan on December 05, 2020, 03:19:51 PM


Always stick to your likings - there are profound reasons for them;D


It's just not true. Look, 20 years ago I liked Beethoven's music, Todd likes now, and now I can't stand the stuff . I liked Chopin last week, today I listened to a nocturne and really, I couldn't see the point of it at all, I didn't like it one bit. I liked wearing red socks in summer, now I like to wear blue socks. I used to like to paint my rooms white, now I like to have one wall a different colour.  I used to enjoy Gorgonzola, now I find it too rich. How can there possibly be anything profound there?

I think this like culture is utterly self obsessed at best. Saying in public that you like or dislike something is about as  profound, to use Delius's word, as sharing your digestive gasses.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

steve ridgway

Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2020, 08:47:09 AM
I think this like culture is utterly self obsessed at best.

Yes, if one can identify why one likes something it may increase self understanding.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2020, 08:47:09 AM
It's just not true. Look, 20 years ago I liked Beethoven's music, Todd likes now, and now I can't stand the stuff . I liked Chopin last week, today I listened to a nocturne and really, I couldn't see the point of it at all, I didn't like it one bit. I liked wearing red socks in summer, now I like to wear blue socks. I used to like to paint my rooms white, now I like to have one wall a different colour.  I used to enjoy Gorgonzola, now I find it too rich. How can there possibly be anything profound there?

I think this like culture is utterly self obsessed at best. Saying in public that you like or dislike something is about as  profound, to use Delius's word, as sharing your digestive gasses.

Because having an understanding of another human being is...well...human. If you have a problem with discussing something as simple as why you dislike or like this or that composer, then how will cope with even more complicated topics? Do you nod your head at everything you're told and agree with everything someone says to you? Are you a robot? Is talking to you like the equivalent of talking to a brick wall? Are you passionate about anything? Where's the fire, scarecrow? Anyway...

Mandryka





Quote from: Mirror Image on December 06, 2020, 09:39:03 AM
Because having an understanding of another human being is...well...human.

Maybe not possible on an Internet forum! I need to think about that. But this is true I think: if you say you like something and someone else says they like it's like a virtual hug. Like I said, utterly shallow.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mandryka on December 06, 2020, 10:14:37 AMMaybe not possible on an Internet forum! I need to think about that. But this is true I think: if you say you like something and someone else says they like it's like a virtual hug. Like I said, utterly shallow.

Alright now you've lost me. So it's shallow to mention to someone else that you like something, too? Ummm....okay....  :-\ How else are you going to get a conversation started or find common ground?

Mandryka

#39
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 06, 2020, 10:22:05 AM
Alright now you've lost me. So it's shallow to mention to someone else that you like something, too? Ummm....okay....  :-\ How else are you going to get a conversation started or find common ground?

You might say, "Don't you think that Feldman's Persian Rug music is similar to Bernhard Lang's Monadology?" Or "I wonder why Beethoven chose to end the Diabelli Variations like that." Or "I can find nothing in common between the style of Debussy's Preludes and his Etudes, what do you make of it?" Or "Sometimes I think that La fanciulla del West is as modern sounding as Wozzeck!" Or "Do you think that Pasifal is sexist? I do!"
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen