Georg Philipp Telemann

Started by Harry, April 15, 2007, 10:55:37 AM

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Jo498

No, it's been a while but you can get all the stuff Musica Antiqua Köln recorded with confidence, especially Tafelmusik and the disc with wind concerti. The latter includes Telemann is rarely dry, it's just not "deep" music but I think he is at least as good an instrumental composer as Vivaldi (who admittedly was more influential because he set the late baroque style for the solo concerto whereas Telemann (like Bach and Handel) drew from many sources and wrote in some fusion style containing "French", Italian and other elements). I have a fondness for Handel, but honestly I'd probably have to say that Telemann is a better or certainly more varied composer of chamber and orchestral music overall. Telemann lacks that piece everyone knows, the Hamburg water music or the picturesque suites like Don Quixote etc. never became as popular. Akademie für Alte Musik have some of these "theme suites" on harmonia mundi, they are also very good.
The Tafelmusik is a great and representative collection; the Brilliant recording with Belder is also pretty good and probably still cheap. For the chamber music there are the "Paris quartets" that have been recorded by the Kujiken's and similar ensembles.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

SonicMan46

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 16, 2020, 03:06:41 AM
Bump for Telemann...

I've been listening to the Wassermusik disc with Goebel & the Musica Antiqua Köln, and have come away with the impression that Telemann is nowhere near as dry and boring as he is sometimes remembered. That being said, he wrote so much music that I don't know what's worth checking out and what is not.

Anyone listening to Telemann lately?

Hi Vers la flamme - I've been a long time GPF fan and have added/culled/donated many of his recordings over the years - I prefer the instrumental works - now own about 50 discs (shown below from my recently updated Numbers database) - probably listen to the 'Table Music' and 'Paris Quartets' the most (and have 2 sets of each, again culled over the years and my current preferences, BUT many others exist as shown over the years in this thread) - Telemann was the most prolific composer of his era (and thus likely any musical time) so recordings can overlap when trying to put together a collection; SO, I've relied on his TWV Catalog and keep track of the composition numbers (in a Google doc) when I want to purchase a new recording.  Dave :)

P.S. also keep in mind that a number of BIG boxes have appeared which provides 'one stop shopping' but can be an 'iffy' mix - some have been shown here in previous posts.


vers la flamme

Thanks for the comments! I think Tafelmusik may be the answer to "where to from here", though there is much to choose from so I will have to do some sampling. I was listening to the Ricercar "Telemann: A Portrait" box and it sounds pretty great, so I may jump on it while it's cheap, but I'm also going to check out the Belder Tafelmusik.

@Sonicman/Dave, thanks much for the TWV Catalog; I've been looking for this.

Mookalafalas

If you can find a copy of this for a good price (used to be dirt cheap, now may be OOP) it is a treasure.

[asin]B06XJGR3V1[/asin]
It's all good...

Scion7

This mighty set has served me well since 1976.  Surfaces still sound great.



When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Jo498

I am not collecting, but I just love LPs. Reminds me of a time when classical recordings were serious business and solid treasures like a leather bound Encyclopedia.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Ras

My favorite music by Telemann are his Orchestral Suites/Overtures. He was very prolific and probably wrote around 600 Overtures. I don't think all of them have been recorded. The closest I have come to a complete set are the three volumes with all in all 9 CDs from Brilliant Classics.

The Darmstadt Overtures from Naxos with Helmut Muller-Bruhl conducting is my favorite Telemann-CD.

If you can find them there are also great Telemann recordings of Overtures/Suites and concertos with Pinnock conducting on Archiv/DG.

Telemann also composed pleasant music for chamber forces - trio sonatas - flute/recorder sonatas etc.
"Music is life and, like it, inextinguishable." - Carl Nielsen

71 dB

Despite of being a fan of German baroque I have very little Telemann's music. I have always found his music less interesting than that of other baroque composers, but then again I have heard only a ridiculously small portion of his gigantic output. On a Sony disc of German cantatas there is Telemann's cantata "Du aber Daniel, gehe hin" which I find very good. While many other German baroque composers from Telemann's generation such as Graupner, Fasch and Heinichen have been weakly recorded especially in the 20th century, Telemann seems to have been well represented alongside J. S. Bach and Handel which feel "force-feeding." Why always Telemann? Why not Schieferdecker for a change?

Telemann is imo a boring name and feels like a stove brand rather than a German baroque composer name.  :P

Quote from: Ras on September 22, 2020, 04:49:06 AM
The Darmstadt Overtures from Naxos with Helmut Muller-Bruhl conducting is my favorite Telemann-CD.

Thanks for the recommendation! I just ordered this CD used for 3,57 euros delivered.  0:)

Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Scion7

QuoteTelemann is imo a boring name and feels like a stove brand rather than a German baroque composer name.  :P
Strange. Oh,well - you might want to look at the main character of this murder novel:  The Telemann Touch, by William Haggard  ç1958


Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2020, 06:02:31 AM
Despite of being a fan of German baroque I have very little Telemann's music. I have always found his music less interesting than that of other baroque composers ... While many other German baroque composers from Telemann's generation such as Graupner, Fasch and Heinichen have been weakly recorded especially in the 20th century, Telemann seems to have been well represented alongside J. S. Bach and Handel which feel "force-feeding." Why always Telemann? Why not Schieferdecker for a change?

The New Grove has two paragraphs and about 3/4 of a page on Schieferdecker when expanded for works.  The article on Telemann spans over 12 pages, and was pulled out and expanded in the Grove's book, North European Baroque Masters ç1985.  I've never seen a book dedicated to Schieferdecker, but there are at least three in English on Telemann.  The articles in various tomes that discuss Telemann are as numberless as the sand.  I see about a dozen for Schieferdecker - although that number is obviously too small.  Telemann composed some 3,000 works.  I see about 100 or so for Schieferdecker.  All this relates to the relative importance of these two composers. 

https://interlude.hk/georg-philipp-telemann-1681-1767-hero-zero/

Steven Zohn in NGDMM:  " The most prolific composer of his time, he was widely regarded as Germany's leading composer during the first half of the 18th century. He remained at the forefront of musical innovation throughout his career, and was an important link between the late Baroque and early Classical styles. He also contributed significantly to Germany's concert life and the fields of music publishing, music education and theory. "

Our personal tastes (usually) need no defending.  But we can't overlook scholarly consensus.








When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Jo498

One also needs to consider that the establishment of Telemann was to some extent an uphill battle. Telemann was the favorite whipping boy of many of the mid/late 19th century first generation of music historians and editors like Philipp Spitta who frequently denigrated the supposed trivial mass production of Telemann compared with Bach (and to a lesser extent Handel who could come on both sides, depending on the author).
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

71 dB

#110
Quote from: Scion7 on September 22, 2020, 05:18:22 PMThe New Grove has two paragraphs and about 3/4 of a page on Schieferdecker when expanded for works.  The article on Telemann spans over 12 pages, and was pulled out and expanded in the Grove's book, North European Baroque Masters ç1985.  I've never seen a book dedicated to Schieferdecker, but there are at least three in English on Telemann.  The articles in various tomes that discuss Telemann are as numberless as the sand.  I see about a dozen for Schieferdecker - although that number is obviously too small.  Telemann composed some 3,000 works.  I see about 100 or so for Schieferdecker.  All this relates to the relative importance of these two composers. 

https://interlude.hk/georg-philipp-telemann-1681-1767-hero-zero/

Steven Zohn in NGDMM:  " The most prolific composer of his time, he was widely regarded as Germany's leading composer during the first half of the 18th century. He remained at the forefront of musical innovation throughout his career, and was an important link between the late Baroque and early Classical styles. He also contributed significantly to Germany's concert life and the fields of music publishing, music education and theory. "

Our personal tastes (usually) need no defending.  But we can't overlook scholarly consensus.

I never said Schieferdecker is as important as Telemann. If the number of compositions is so important then Alban Berg is not important. What you write is actually an example of "manufacturing consent" where 10 times more important composers are made to look 100 times more important. In the 18th century Telemann was considered more important than J. S. Bach. Should we still think the same way? I don't know about you, but I don't and I think J. S. Bach is more important than Telemann.

Schieferdecker was Buxtehude's last pupil and not even the best one (Bruhns was). I'd say my taste puts Telemann and Schieferdecker on the same level, althou I have heard relatively little both. Also it's clear you are going to have much more recordings of an insanely prolific composer. I'm just saying when scholars concentrate their attention to praise a few selected composers they create shadows that hide the other composers from us, composers who would be interesting in their own way.

Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Scion7

^ your question was, "why not Shieferdecker ..." being recorded as often, etc. - which I tried to explain
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

71 dB

Quote from: Scion7 on September 23, 2020, 04:46:18 AM
^ your question was, "why not Shieferdecker ..." being recorded as often, etc. - which I tried to explain

I wrote "for a change", not "as often". Totally different thing.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

vers la flamme

Quote from: Ras on September 22, 2020, 04:49:06 AM
My favorite music by Telemann are his Orchestral Suites/Overtures. He was very prolific and probably wrote around 600 Overtures. I don't think all of them have been recorded. The closest I have come to a complete set are the three volumes with all in all 9 CDs from Brilliant Classics.

The Darmstadt Overtures from Naxos with Helmut Muller-Bruhl conducting is my favorite Telemann-CD.

If you can find them there are also great Telemann recordings of Overtures/Suites and concertos with Pinnock conducting on Archiv/DG.

Telemann also composed pleasant music for chamber forces - trio sonatas - flute/recorder sonatas etc.

Telemann's Wassermusik Overture great—you're telling me this is only one of 600 of his works in the genre?! I'll have to track down that Mühler-Brühl recording. Is it on period instruments? I have one Naxos Telemann recording, concertos with Richard Edlinger & the Capella Istropolitana. Not really HIP at all, but I like the sound of the ensemble so it's OK.

amw

I always enjoy listening to Telemann even if he's not a particularly deep or intellectual composer. So it's honestly hard to go wrong with any album in general, I guess. I've nonetheless put an asterisk * next to personal favourites from my small (?) collection.

I have the following:

Double & Triple Concertos - Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music
Triple Concertos - Simon Standage, Collegium Musicum 90
*Christmas Cantatas II - a bunch of people I don't know, and Miriam Feuersinger
Passions-Oratorium - Hermann Max, Das Kleine Konzert
Chamber Music for Recorder - Dorothee Oberlinger, Ensemble 1700
*Complete Violin Concertos Vols. 3, 5 & 6 - Elizabeth Wallfisch, The Wallfisch Band
Festliche Kantaten zur Reformation - Kammerchor Bad Homburg, Johann Rosenmüller Ensemble
*Quintetti d'archi e Partite per due liuti - Freiburger Barockorchester Consort
Tafelmusik (complete) - Freiburger Barockorchester
*Quatuors Parisiens (complete) - John Holloway, Linde Brunmayr, Lorenz Duftschmid, Ulrike Becker, Lars Ulrik Mortensen
Wind Overtures Vol. 1 - L'Orfeo Blaserensemble
*The Grand Concertos for Mixed Instruments Vols. 1 and 2, + Wind Concertos Vol. 7 - Michael Schneider, La Stagione Frankfurt
*Ouverture-Suites - Felix Koch, Neumeyer Consort
12 Fantasias for Solo Violin - Rachel Podger
12 Fantasias for Solo Violin, arranged for viola - Nobuko Imai
*12 Fantasias & a sonata for Solo Viola da Gamba - Paolo Pandolfo

Plus:
*2 oboe concertos - Thomas Stacy (split album with JS Bach)
Trio Sonata TWV42:g7 - Pallade Musica (split album with OEG Schieferlein & CPE Bach)
*Viola concerto TWV51:G9 - Nils Mönkemeyer (split album with Corelli, JS Bach, Delalande)

kyjo

I don't know much of Telemann's output, but I've performed selections from the Tafelmusik and found them immensely enjoyable and inventive. I've been looking for a recording of the work on modern instruments (preferably incorporating some elements of period performance), but haven't been successful. Anyone have any leads?
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

Jo498

There is/was a Tafelmusik recording with Paillard (Erato) on modern instruments and the first Brüggen recording (Concerto Amsterdam) apparently also uses modern instruments. I have not heard either but I guess that both have some influence from the budding HIP scene of the 1960s.

I have a bunch of vocal music from Telemann; I think this part of his oeuvre is still rather underrated and not as well represented on discs.

[asin]B00006C2C5[/asin]

Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Ras

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 23, 2020, 02:52:50 PM
Telemann's Wassermusik Overture great—you're telling me this is only one of 600 of his works in the genre?! I'll have to track down that Mühler-Brühl recording. Is it on period instruments? I have one Naxos Telemann recording, concertos with Richard Edlinger & the Capella Istropolitana. Not really HIP at all, but I like the sound of the ensemble so it's OK.

Yes, I have seen the figure 600 Overtures by Telemann, not in a scholarly  work just in a popular introduction to classical music (Kenneth and Valerie McLeish's: "A Listener's Guide to Classical Music"). Same source claims Telemann wrote 1000 concertos!!!

The Naxos recording I recommended is played on modern instruments by a chamber orchestra, but though not strictly speaking on period instrument I would still say it's "HIP".
Here is the Muhler-Bruhl Naxos CD:
[asin]B000038I7S[/asin]

Another favorite recording of Overtures by Telemann (and this one is on period instruments) is Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin on Harmonia Mundi:
[asin]B00C3MGIZO[/asin]

This recording is good too, but apparently out of print - 8 cds with Overtures on Brilliant Classics:
[asin]B0085U0GJW[/asin]

Telemann's "Tafelmusik" is a good place to start - it takes up ca. 4 CDs and it alternates between chamber pieces and overtures. My favorite recording has not yet been completed and is out of print: Florilegium on Channel Classics.
So instead I would recommend Musica Antiqua Koln:
[asin]B003W16TAE[/asin]

Freiburger Barockorchester also recorded Tafelmusik for Harmnoia Mundi, but it is also out of print.

I think pretty much all of the recordings recommended here (even those that are OOP) can be found on streaming services such as www.spotify.com


"Music is life and, like it, inextinguishable." - Carl Nielsen

vers la flamme

^Thanks! That Goebel Tafelmusik looks good, and I have his Wassermusik disc. Thoughts on the Belder/Brilliant Classics Tafelmusik? I have been looking at that too, and it's so cheap.

Jo498

Belder is overall very good. A bit more relaxed and not as contrastful as Goebel but he has some of the top Dutch/Belgian soloists, so buy with confidence.

Brilliant has an older 3-disc set with some concerti that is a mix between HIP and modern instruments (because licensed from several sources) and also not bad but not as good as the Tafelmusik
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal