Quiz: Mystery scores

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's one of those films which raises so many thoughts - and without words or plot to interrupt those thoughts, your mind wanders to distant and rewarding places throughout its entire length; it's almost as if the train-of-thought one follows as one watches the film is an integral but always-new part of the experience. And of course the music is a big part of that. One of the things about the music is that it parallels the nature/human/machine themes of the images it accompanies. (...) I'm sure that, subliminally, this is one of the reasons that the music is so effective in context.

Yes, what is fascinating is that you are watching a kind of philosophy of technology in the shape of a 'music-enhanced' film. No, even better: film and music seems to be two sides of the same philosophical argument that is the film. And the whole issue of programme music vs. absolute music seems to be resolved here - you can't tell whether the music 'begot' the image or vice versa. The balance is perfect.

[Sean]

I think you are avoiding the res, which is that no music "senses" anything, let alone your eccentric ideas of what music in our own lifetime constitutes a "watershed."

Koyannisqqatsi was one of the very last important musical works to be produced. There's been virtually nothing, no let me rephrase that, nothing of real substance and value written since the mid-1980s.

[Mark G. Simon]

Koyannisqqatsi was one of the very last important musical works to be produced. There's been virtually nothing, no let me rephrase that, nothing of real substance and value written since the mid-1980s.

to your knowledge.

[Guido]

Obviously you are greatly in the minority opinion here (at least amongst the people on this thread!), but maybe you should explain what you mean by "real substance and value". Carter's later works, though they hark back to an earlier age, I would suggest are an example of this.

[Sean]

Carter!?!

I thought you were trying to argue against me not for me!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Carter!?!

I thought you were trying to argue against me not for me!

Then you at least acknowledge the work Carter produced until 1985.

[Sean]

Well I think he had a neoclassical phase in the 60s didn't he?

[Mark G. Simon]

Well I think he had a neoclassical phase in the 60s didn't he?

The 1930s and 40s, following his study with Nadia Boulanger.

[Symphonien]

Symphonien's no 6 - Sciarrino, either Sei Quartetti Brevi or String Quartet no 7. (Perhaps....)

Very good!! It is the Sei Quartetti Brevi. I like the curvy lines he uses above the notes to indicate sul tasto/ponticello.

[lukeottevanger]

Very good!! It is the Sei Quartetti Brevi. I like the curvy lines he uses above the notes to indicate sul tasto/ponticello.

I suddenly realised I recognised the handwriting from other Sciarrino scores I have (whether it's the copyist or Sciarrino's own I don't know). So from there it was a process of elimination. Of the two I suggested I had an inkling it would be the first merely because the character of the music looked as if it belonged to a) an earlier work and b) a work whose title sounds as if it would be made up of more epigrammatic, texturally exploratory sections. But I wasn't brave enough to plump for it alone 

Koyannisqqatsi was one of the very last important musical works to be produced. There's been virtually nothing, no let me rephrase that, nothing of real substance and value written since the mid-1980s.

Not even in the works of Glass himself? Or, say, Adams, or other minimalist? 

Still, glad Koyaanisqatsi's got you all talking...

[Guido]

Protecting Veil and Different trains, to name two extremely famous works of the late eightees in a minimalist style that I guess have "real substance" in whatever terms you are talking about. I'd really like to know exactly what you mean. I guess you reject atonality of any sort if you reject Carter - I don't really see the sense in that... you are rejecting a very large body of works that are very enjoyable, at least to me and many others on this forum.

[lukeottevanger]

Protecting Veil and Different trains, to name two extremely famous works of the late eightees in a minimalist style that I guess have "real substance" in whatever terms you are talking about. I'd really like to know exactly what you mean. I guess you reject atonality of any sort if you reject Carter - I don't really see the sense in that... you are rejecting a very large body of works that are very enjoyable, at least to me and many others on this forum.

I think to Sean a phrase like 'real substance' isn't quite the relatively open-ended form of praise for a 'profound' piece which it might be for everyone else; instead it has a very narrowly determined meaning which (coincidentally  ) chimes with Sean's own views on The World. In other words, though the works you mention may well have substance for many other listeners, it's not the sort of substance which Sean thinks is really the substance that counts. So they don't! And actually, I can see the logic in this part of Sean's position - he has strongly held core beliefs (we may or may not agree with them) and he judges music accordingly. Quite harshly, we might feel, but consistently at any rate. Though I still don't see how the Glass of the early 80s can have substance according to Sean's criteria whilst the Glass of a few years later (of Powaqatsi, for instance) cannot...

In a more extreme, less logical and more unpleasant form, we see a darker side of this sort of self-sufficient and circular thinking in Rod Corkin, for whom the phrase 'great' has a precisely fixed meaning, which is 'written by Beethoven or Handel'. Rod therefore frees himself to say with impunity and in a self-satisfied way that Mozart, Bach, Schubert, Haydn and all the rest are not great, and that those who think they are are brainwashed fools unable to accept the truth.  Rod, of course, being such a fine example of an open and accepting mind....

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Rod enjoys the luxury of a non-developing mind. I have registered at his site, and have tried to extend his range. To no avail.

[lukeottevanger]

Rod enjoys the luxury of a non-developing mind.

The irony! In a Beethoven fan....

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The irony! In a Beethoven fan....

Exactly. I don't think he 'gets' Beethoven - for me the artist of growth and evolution -, otherwise he would apply him to life and art in general.

[lukeottevanger]

Shall I give some clues on my remaining 7?

(these are the real numbers, as given in the list, not the incorrect numbers I gave the files themselves)

212 - actually, this piece was given as a guess for another piece on this thread. If you look at the page carefully, you will very likely be able to identify it.

215 - a notational experiment - an attempt to do away with 'tuplet' figures and brackets and replace them with noteheads of different shapes. One of music's great experimenters (but most excitingly for him, he once met Janacek...that's not really part of the clue though, just an excuse for me to mention the big J again  )

217 - a hommage to an earlier composer, written (IIRC) for that composer's centenary by one of the most famous radicals of the 20th century. A very short, pithy title.

219 - composer much more famous as a legendary pianist; he recorded this piece and it is available on one of the great CDs, though it isn't the major draw. Examine the piece carefully and you might notice something somewhat unusual about its layout.

221 - Messiaen, as has been guessed - and it looks like no-one else, does it!? One of his lesser-known pieces, not part of a larger set. But recorded and not completely obscure.

223 - this one is really hard, to be fair, even though the title is left in - it's quite an unhelpful title, though. I just really like the sound of this piece, and it's an excuse to post an audio clip later for those who might be interested in hearing something so odd. As you can see, the piece progresses mostly in harmonics, and the guitar is tuned microtonally - the whole thing, as the indication says 'with rapt concentration, as if telling a strange tale'. British composer, quite obscure but linked to the complexity group (if there is such a thing), has written many similarly titled pieces for piano, all of which explore the instrument in similar ways.

224 - this is a piano reduction of an orchestral score, but one of the weirdest ones I've seen. At some points - like here - the composer (who seems to be responsible for the reduction) includes pretty much everything, resulting in music which is utterly unplayable. At other points, the reduction is rather thin and lots is missed out that really ought to be there. I can't see any consistency in this approach. The original piece is a symphonic poem but was intended to be a ballet whose scenario includes a virgin and a monster or two; each action is indicated in the score. It is incredibly orchestrated and includes parts for viola d'amore and violinophone (the latter a violin attached to a horn, invented by the composer who has been called by a reputable voice the finest orchestrator of all).

[(poco) Sforzando]

Exactly. I don't think he 'gets' Beethoven.

I don't think he gets anything.

[Sean]

Luke, well indeed I was thinking of equating substance with profundity- my view of things is in a way narrow, in the same sort of way that quality is something narrow, and chimes with what I feel is a view of art as intimately connected with the reality we live in. As you know, that's to say art isn't any old abstract sphere of 'meaning' the likes of the unsophisticated Carter et al brain manufactures, but refers to aspects of lived reality whose logic has transcendental grounding. Ie tonality.

Powaqatsi isn't as strong a piece at all. But the Distant lands, Africa bit at least is classic Glass.

[lukeottevanger]

Luke, well indeed I was thinking of equating substance with profundity- my view of things is in a way narrow, in the same sort of way that quality is something narrow, and chimes with what I feel is a view of art as intimately connected with the reality we live in. As you know, that's to say art isn't any old abstract sphere of 'meaning' the likes of the unsophisticated Carter et al brain manufactures, but refers to aspects of lived reality whose logic has transcendental grounding. Ie tonality.

Let's not there here, though, hey?  It's been rather amazing that we haven't had a serious anti-modern thread for quite along time, and I'm rather enjoying not having to rehash all those old arguments again (and again and again....).

Powaqatsi isn't as strong a piece at all. But the Distant lands, Africa bit at least is classic Glass.

Actually, I agree about the Powaqatsi music - it has great moments, but is nothing like as powerful as Koyaanisqatsi. But nevertheless, it comes 'from the same place', and I'd have thought that if the earlier work struck you as of substance, the later one would too. Or at least be in the same ballpark.

[Sean]

No, no- the dust is settled on things for me in that area.

The non-Western musics he included didn't work that well in the sequel; I understand there's a recent third addition though, which would be nice to get into.

Must log off & go home...