The Fifth: Sibelius or Nielsen?

[Symphonic Addict]

A poll just for fun. Two masterpieces of high musical caliber.

This doesn't imply greatness or which is better or weaker. I'm curious about how you could pick out.

[Karl Henning]

Tough choice, went with Carl.

[Mirror Image]

Damn, Cesar! What a difficult poll even if is just for fun! I chose Sibelius' 5th. I can go months without ever hearing a note of Nielsen, but Sibelius is a composer that is close to my own heart and he's never far from being within earshot.

[Mirror Image]

To add to what I wrote a bit earlier, I do love Nielsen's music and think he's one of the greats of the 20th Century. His symphonies and concerti are amongst my favorite music from anyone. It's just that he doesn't quite speak to on the same level that Sibelius speaks to me. I don't mind mentioning this again, but Sibelius is one of the only composers that has brought a tear to my eye (the others were Mahler, Strauss and Shostakovich). Vaughan Williams almost make me tear up one time, but I believe that was more allergies than anything.

[kyjo]

Although I love Sibelius' 5th - especially for the second half of the first movement and the finale - this wasn't a very difficult choice for me. Nielsen's 5th, for me, stands as one of the most powerful and original symphonic statements ever penned. It's just an immaculate conception! I'd choose it for that snare drum battle in the first movement alone, but of course that gorgeous Adagio and the masterly fugue in the finale are just as remarkable.

Just for fun, here's my Sibelius vs. Nielsen symphony (1-6) preferences:

1: Sibelius
2: Sibelius
3: tough choice, but probably Sibelius
4: Nielsen
5: Nielsen
6: Sibelius

[MusicTurner]

1. S
2. S
3. N
4. N
5. N
6. S
(7. + Kullervo S)

V Cto : S
(Fl Cto, Cl Cto: N)

Symphonic poems: S
String orchestra: S

String quartets: N
Piano & instruments: S
Other chamber music: N

Piano music: N

Opera: N
Vocals & orchestra: N
Choir: S
Songs: S

[DaveF]

I've always found Sibelius 5 the hardest of his symphonic nuts to crack, and am puzzled that it should be one of the most popular.  I had no problems with 6 or 7, supposedly the least accessible of the cycle, but the "inner heart" of no.5 eluded me, and still does to some extent (what is that bassoon solo about in the middle of the first movement, for example?).  Whereas I know every note of Nielsen 5 and don't feel it holds any further surprises for me.  So must choose Sibelius in the hope that one day I'll get it.

[Roasted Swan]

Heresy Alert!!! Both Nielsen and Sibelius blow me away - I'm consistently thrilled and moved by both of them.  But probably my least favourite Nielsen Symphony is No.5.  I get it (in the main) but it doesn't move me - the side drum is an astonishing idea but somehow the conception is more intriguing than the reality (which has nothing to do ever with the calibre of performance) - perhaps I need to flail hopelessly against fate more to kind of get into the mood....

[Mirror Image]

1. S
2. S
3. N
4. N
5. N
6. S
(7. + Kullervo S)

V Cto : S
(Fl Cto, Cl Cto: N)

Symphonic poems: S
String orchestra: S

String quartets: N
Piano & instruments: S
Other chamber music: N

Piano music: N

Opera: N
Vocals & orchestra: N
Choir: S
Songs: S

Hmmm...let me try my hand at this, but only limit to six symphonies since Nielsen only wrote this many:

1. Sibelius
2. Sibelius
3. Nielsen
4. Sibelius
5. Sibelius
6. Sibelius

V Cto: Sibelius

Symphonic poems: Sibelius
String orchestra: Sibelius

String quartets: Sibelius
Piano & instruments: Sibelius
Other chamber music: Nielsen

Piano music: Sibelius

Opera: Sibelius (I've always loved The Maiden in the Tower and I don't care much for Nielsen's operatic music)
Vocals & orchestra: Sibelius
Choir: n/a (I'm not really a fan of a cappella choral music)
Songs: Sibelius (his songs are outstanding)

[Brian]

I've always found Sibelius 5 the hardest of his symphonic nuts to crack, and am puzzled that it should be one of the most popular.  I had no problems with 6 or 7, supposedly the least accessible of the cycle, but the "inner heart" of no.5 eluded me, and still does to some extent (what is that bassoon solo about in the middle of the first movement, for example?).  Whereas I know every note of Nielsen 5 and don't feel it holds any further surprises for me.  So must choose Sibelius in the hope that one day I'll get it.

I interpret Sibelius 5 as a battle between darkness and light, or gloom and optimism, or whatever your favored metaphor is, enacted largely via moments of extreme dissonance and extreme loyalty to the older harmonies. It's like Sibelius 4 versus Sibelius 3 in simultaneous battle.

So the bassoon solo for example would be the moment of doubt and crisis, where things start fraying and risk coming apart entirely, into the kind of tragedy we heard in 1 and 4. The ensuing climax is a really physical wrestling match where the major key (indeed the key in general) comes out champion. This is why I like big orchestra performances that sound really brawny and violent, but have a big romantic payoff at the end too.

There's a moment of crisis in each movement, and they're all immediately followed by the triumphant (or peaceful in the slow movement) restoration of beauty. But it's all about that conflict and duality!

[Brian]

Anyway...

1: Nielsen
2: Sibelius
3: Nielsen
4: Nielsen
5: Sibelius
6: Sibelius

[Symphonic Addict]

Tough choice, went with Carl.

So did I!

[Symphonic Addict]

Damn, Cesar! What a difficult poll even if is just for fun! I chose Sibelius' 5th. I can go months without ever hearing a note of Nielsen, but Sibelius is a composer that is close to my own heart and he's never far from being within earshot.

That is the idea. 

To add to what I wrote a bit earlier, I do love Nielsen's music and think he's one of the greats of the 20th Century. His symphonies and concerti are amongst my favorite music from anyone. It's just that he doesn't quite speak to on the same level that Sibelius speaks to me. I don't mind mentioning this again, but Sibelius is one of the only composers that has brought a tear to my eye (the others were Mahler, Strauss and Shostakovich). Vaughan Williams almost make me tear up one time, but I believe that was more allergies than anything.

Very valid points, John. I feel the same thing when I notice when which or which composer speaks to me in a way that moves me and where words fail to explain well why. In this particular case, I looooooooooove Nielsen's 5th. This work has everything: mystery, excitement aplenty, weird atmospheres in places, heroic vigour, the kind of quirkiness he knew to stamp in, struggle, amazing use of the orchestra, extraordinary tunes, I mean. It's a practically perfect piece of music, almost designed for my tastes, and with that I don't intend to be selfish. It's just that my soul confirms me those feelings.

Sibelius, despite I've heard it multiple times, remains a bit impenetrable but in terms of its development. It's an incredibly noble, majestic, imposing creation and I do love it too, but in a slight inferior level than the Nielsen.

[Symphonic Addict]

Although I love Sibelius' 5th - especially for the second half of the first movement and the finale - this wasn't a very difficult choice for me. Nielsen's 5th, for me, stands as one of the most powerful and original symphonic statements ever penned. It's just an immaculate conception! I'd choose it for that snare drum battle in the first movement alone, but of course that gorgeous Adagio and the masterly fugue in the finale are just as remarkable.

Just for fun, here's my Sibelius vs. Nielsen symphony (1-6) preferences:

1: Sibelius
2: Sibelius
3: tough choice, but probably Sibelius
4: Nielsen
5: Nielsen
6: Sibelius

My impressions concur with yours about the Nielsen. It's truly an imaginative and groundbreaking creation, and it remains so, I want to believe.

Ok, let's see how my preferences would be:

1. Sibelius (rather easy. Nielsen's orgogliosa First Symphony has all the merits to be my choice as well).
2. Sibelius (a bit tough as I'm appreciating Nielsen's The Four Temperaments more and more, but including sentimental reasons, Sibelius wins).
3. Nielsen hands down.
4. Nielsen. Sibelius is growing on me, though
5. Well, Nielsen.
6. Hmmm difficult. Seriously difficult. I'd say: tied.

[Symphonic Addict]

1. S
2. S
3. N
4. N
5. N
6. S
(7. + Kullervo S)

V Cto : S
(Fl Cto, Cl Cto: N)

Symphonic poems: S
String orchestra: S

String quartets: N
Piano & instruments: S
Other chamber music: N

Piano music: N

Opera: N
Vocals & orchestra: N
Choir: S
Songs: S

This looks incredibly similar if I do the same exercise, except that I consider Sibelius more interesting as a piano composer than Nielsen.

[Mirror Image]

That is the idea. 

Very valid points, John. I feel the same thing when I notice when which or which composer speaks to me in a way that moves me and where words fail to explain well why. In this particular case, I looooooooooove Nielsen's 5th. This work has everything: mystery, excitement aplenty, weird atmospheres in places, heroic vigour, the kind of quirkiness he knew to stamp in, struggle, amazing use of the orchestra, extraordinary tunes, I mean. It's a practically perfect piece of music, almost designed for my tastes, and with that I don't intend to be selfish. It's just that my soul confirms me that feelings.

Sibelius, despite I've heard it multiple times, remains a bit impenetrable but in terms of its development. It's an incredibly noble, majestic, imposing creation and I do love it too, but in a slight inferior level than the Nielsen.

I love Nielsen, but he will always be second to me when it comes to Sibelius. That's just the way it is --- this isn't a slight against Nielsen, but just how I feel. I'm not sure if I'd use the word inferior (even though you used slight in front of it) when talking about either one of these symphonies --- there's nothing slight about Sibelius' 5th in any way, shape or form. It's an incredible piece, but it's not my favorite Sibelius symphony. That honor goes to the 4th.

[Jo498]

1 S
2 S
3 N
4 toughest choice; probably N as 4 and 5 are my favorites of his but 4 is also one of my Sibelius favs. I would have to re-listen and probably still not be able to decide
5 N but only by a little
6 S

[Brahmsian]

Some of these are tough, but my current preferences:

1 - Nielsen (I'm an oddball in that this is my favourite Nielsen symphony)
2 - Sibelius
3 - Tie (love both a lot)
4 - Sibelius
5 - Sibelius
6 - Sibelius

[Mirror Image]

Some of these are tough, but my current preferences:

1 - Nielsen (I'm an oddball in that this is my favourite Nielsen symphony)
2 - Sibelius
3 - Tie (love both a lot)
4 - Sibelius
5 - Sibelius
6 - Sibelius

Spoken like a true Sibelian. Nice list, Ray.

[MusicTurner]

This looks incredibly similar if I do the same exercise, except that I consider Sibelius more interesting as a piano composer than Nielsen.

I hear much more variation, quirkiness and ambition in N's piano works, but that's life ... Regarding the vocals+orchestra preference for Nielsen, the major disadvantage is of course the absence of Sibelius' 'Luonnatar', but you'd still be allowed to have the equally magnificent 'Kullervo' in the Symphonies section.

And as regards the piano+instruments, the preference for Sibelius is quite marginal, since Nielsen's Violin Sonatas are superb, and the small works for winds & piano nice; yet the early Piano Trio is unimportant. However, Sibelius' works in that field are generally more ambitious, including the piano quintet, and some of the piano trio works charming. Plus 'Malincolia' for cello & piano is impressive too ...

As regards 3rd Symphonies, I have a clear preference for N, S's being one of his simpler works IMHO.