The Fifth: Sibelius or Nielsen?

[Mirror Image]

Regarding the vocals+orchestra preference for Nielsen, the major disadvantage is of course the absence of Sibelius' 'Luonnatar', but you'd still be allowed to have the equally magnificent 'Kullervo' in the Symphonies section.

Have you forgotten about all the wonderful songs that Sibelius orchestrated? These are enough for me to catapult him ahead of Nielsen. Even if we don't add in Luonnotar or Kullervo, his orchestrated songs are exquisite.

[MusicTurner]

Have you forgotten about all the wonderful songs that Sibelius orchestrated? These are enough for me to catapult him ahead of Nielsen. Even if we don't add in Luonnotar or Kullervo, his orchestrated songs are exquisite.

That's true, I have among other things a really wonderful Hynninen/Segerstam recording on Ondine, absolutely top-notch, but I'd consider 'smuggling it in' under 'Songs: ~alternative versions', since there is a vocal+piano version as a point of departure  .

Also, some popular orchestrations of songs aren't always by Sibelius himself, as far as I remember.

[Mirror Image]

That's true, I have among other things a really wonderful Hynninen/Segerstam recording on Ondine, absolutely top-notch, but I'd consider 'smuggling it in' under 'Songs: ~alternative versions', since there is a vocal+piano version as a point of departure  .

Also, some popular orchestrations of songs aren't always by Sibelius himself, as far as I remember.

Actually, most of Sibelius' songs that were orchestrated were done by him. There was a recording released on Ondine of some songs that were orchestrated by Sallinen, but I think this is the only other composer other than Sibelius himself that I've seen orchestrate any of the songs.

[MusicTurner]

For example, Rautavaara, Jalas, Hellman, Helasvuo and others also orchestrated songs, that were recorded by Finley on Chandos, and some of those by Hynninen/Segerstam, on Ondine.

Isokoski recorded Jalas arrangements on Ondine.

Canadian composer Estacio has also orchestrated some, but apparently they were only performed at recent concerts in several places. There are probably further examples and recordings.

[vandermolen]

Much as I like the music of the Sibelius, his 5th Symphony is not one of my favourites (I actually prefer the original version recorded by Vanska). Nielsen's 5th is, however, my favourite of his symphonies (with No.6 a close second).

[vers la flamme]

Is Nielsen's 5th generally considered one of his best? I struggle with Nielsen's music. But I think I will have to give that work another try soon, maybe today.

[MusicTurner]

Is Nielsen's 5th generally considered one of his best? I struggle with Nielsen's music. But I think I will have to give that work another try soon, maybe today.

The 4th is probably the most well-known and popular, but only by little margin.
Then comes 5 and 3, I think.

As regards the best, I'd say 3-5 are the highlights, and especially 4 and 5 are seen as some of the important ones in the 20th century, by a good deal of experts. But the other symphonies have qualities too, and they're all very different from each other.

If you have access to Bernstein/NYPO in the 5th, try that one. Recordings of the work vary A LOT in intensity, clarity, and style.

[kyjo]

Much as I like the music of the Sibelius, his 5th Symphony is not one of my favourites (I actually prefer the original version recorded by Vanska). Nielsen's 5th is, however, my favourite of his symphonies (with No.6 a close second).

To the bolded text - shhhhhh, don't let Hurwitz hear you say that! He'll have a meltdown! I really should get around to listening to the original version of the Sibelius at some point.

I think the main reason Sibelius 5 isn't a "desert island" piece for me is the central movement. It's not bad by any means, but it doesn't strike me as one of Sibelius' most inspired creations. It seems a bit "slight" compared to the outer movements perhaps.

[vandermolen]

Is Nielsen's 5th generally considered one of his best? I struggle with Nielsen's music. But I think I will have to give that work another try soon, maybe today.

I think that the answer to that is a definite yes, although 4-6 are all terrific IMO.

[Karl Henning]

I think that the answer to that is a definite yes, although 4-6 are all terrific IMO.

+1

[vers la flamme]

Nielsen's 6th is probably the most challenging for me.

I did enjoy revisiting the 5th today, and will possibly do so again tomorrow.

[Symphonic Addict]

I've always found Sibelius 5 the hardest of his symphonic nuts to crack, and am puzzled that it should be one of the most popular.  I had no problems with 6 or 7, supposedly the least accessible of the cycle, but the "inner heart" of no.5 eluded me, and still does to some extent (what is that bassoon solo about in the middle of the first movement, for example?).  Whereas I know every note of Nielsen 5 and don't feel it holds any further surprises for me.  So must choose Sibelius in the hope that one day I'll get it.

An interesting conclusion. Certainly, the other day I heard the famous Colin Davis recording with the Boston Symphony and my vision about this symphony (Sibelius) changed radically. I especially was taken by the 1st movement. Its development it much more interesting, captivating, accesible and eloquent than I had thought. The second movement also grew on me. The 3rd movement on this interpretation didn't strike me as succesful, at least it didn't in the opening of the movement, though.

[Symphonic Addict]

Heresy Alert!!! Both Nielsen and Sibelius blow me away - I'm consistently thrilled and moved by both of them.  But probably my least favourite Nielsen Symphony is No.5.  I get it (in the main) but it doesn't move me - the side drum is an astonishing idea but somehow the conception is more intriguing than the reality (which has nothing to do ever with the calibre of performance) - perhaps I need to flail hopelessly against fate more to kind of get into the mood....

That is the real heresy. 

But seriously, the Nielsen is the kind of work that simply can't bore me. I mean, I could listen to this work endlessly and never get tired of. I'm utterly fascinated by its particular musical construction.

[Symphonic Addict]

I interpret Sibelius 5 as a battle between darkness and light, or gloom and optimism, or whatever your favored metaphor is, enacted largely via moments of extreme dissonance and extreme loyalty to the older harmonies. It's like Sibelius 4 versus Sibelius 3 in simultaneous battle.

So the bassoon solo for example would be the moment of doubt and crisis, where things start fraying and risk coming apart entirely, into the kind of tragedy we heard in 1 and 4. The ensuing climax is a really physical wrestling match where the major key (indeed the key in general) comes out champion. This is why I like big orchestra performances that sound really brawny and violent, but have a big romantic payoff at the end too.

There's a moment of crisis in each movement, and they're all immediately followed by the triumphant (or peaceful in the slow movement) restoration of beauty. But it's all about that conflict and duality!

Interesting. I'd never thought about that possible interpretation. Instead, I get it like pastoral and heroic in mood. For me it's utterly optimistic, just that more subdued in some passages, but this work makes me think of a majestic Finnish landscape with swans, snow, a glorious sun, like the beginning of spring.

Definitely it's interesting to me to find out how people react to works I adore so much.

[Symphonic Addict]

Much as I like the music of the Sibelius, his 5th Symphony is not one of my favourites (I actually prefer the original version recorded by Vanska). Nielsen's 5th is, however, my favourite of his symphonies (with No.6 a close second).

Same here, Jeffrey. I do admit the Sibelius is growing on me. And I'd never doubt about to consider it as a masterpiece. It is!!

[Symphonic Addict]

The 4th is probably the most well-known and popular, but only by little margin.
Then comes 5 and 3, I think.

As regards the best, I'd say 3-5 are the highlights, and especially 4 and 5 are seen as some of the important ones in the 20th century, by a good deal of experts. But the other symphonies have qualities too, and they're all very different from each other.

If you have access to Bernstein/NYPO in the 5th, try that one. Recordings of the work vary A LOT in intensity, clarity, and style.

Certainly, and I'd add the Horenstein recording of the 5th. Oh man, that's a knock-out of a performance!!

[Symphonic Addict]

I think the main reason Sibelius 5 isn't a "desert island" piece for me is the central movement. It's not bad by any means, but it doesn't strike me as one of Sibelius' most inspired creations. It seems a bit "slight" compared to the outer movements perhaps.

I could agree with this. The mood of the movement is peaceful, somewhat relaxed, innocent and sunny, rather pastoral in the end. I'm more fond of the his other slow movements, nonetheless. They're more memorable.

[Symphonic Addict]

I think that the answer to that is a definite yes, although 4-6 are all terrific IMO.

Yes, though I'd add the 2nd and 3rd too. For me they're indispensable IMO. I sincerely could live without the Nielsen, but I couldn't do without the Sibelius either.

I could think you don't like the 3rd that much because it is too much "optimistic"?, couldn't I, Jeffrey?

[vers la flamme]

Hmm, I hear a lot in Sibelius' 5th. Don't ask me why, because I couldn't possibly explain, but when I first heard the symphony, it struck me almost as a kind of prelude to the 20th century, from kind of an optimistic perspective. The first recording I ever heard was the Osmo Vänska/Minnesota, via streaming. I'd love to get that one on disc, it's damn good.

[Symphonic Addict]

Anyway...

1: Nielsen
2: Sibelius
3: Nielsen
4: Nielsen
5: Sibelius
6: Sibelius

Same number of both. Rather fair.