Author Topic: EJ Moeran  (Read 82905 times)

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Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #640 on: July 29, 2021, 08:43:31 AM »
To all those that have bought my book (either hardback or ebook) and have read it, or are reading it, or plan to read it, or have otherwise read it through borrowing from a library etc., thank you, and I am grateful for and welcome all comments and, indeed, criticism.

To those that have not read the book but still feel it necessary to comment on the content, I hope you realise what a complete numpty you appear to be.

Offline vandermolen

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #641 on: July 30, 2021, 06:44:55 AM »
regimental war diaries are official records kept by the regiment - they are not an individual's record of their war - that is what I was refering to when I meant that Moeran's activities had to be traced in the accounts of others or other organisations.....
Rather like Vaughan Williams, who served in the First WW but AFAIK didn't keep a diary. The new book about VW's experiences in the First WW has had to be pieced together from regimental war diaries etc.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Online Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #642 on: July 30, 2021, 07:12:49 AM »
regimental war diaries are official records kept by the regiment - they are not an individual's record of their war - that is what I was refering to when I meant that Moeran's activities had to be traced in the accounts of others or other organisations.....
So, are they kept (written) by the commander of the regiment?  And how detailed are they?  Are there any notes about someones bravery, what their job was and what they did in the end?  Or do they vary quite a bit in terms of detail?  Just wondering whether or not you or anyone else here knows as I'm curious.

PD

Offline vandermolen

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #643 on: July 30, 2021, 07:20:21 AM »
Thanks for helping me out here, Roasted. I was simply ignoring the interminably insufferable "J", and will continue to do so.
It was 'J' who originally and enthusiastically alerted me to your PhD Thesis on Moeran and sent me a link. I certainly will be acquiring your book, however, in a forum where people have very different views, I wonder how helpful your above comment is?
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #644 on: July 30, 2021, 07:34:09 AM »
It was 'J' who originally and enthusiastically alerted me to your PhD Thesis on Moeran and sent me a link. I certainly will be acquiring your book, however, in a forum where people have very different views, I wonder how helpful your above comment is?
I'm with you, Jeffrey. We cannot be friends with everyone, we even may dislike someone. But - here it's all about music, in particular: Moeran's. I suggest we unite in the love we have for it, and keep the animosity at home.

That said, I too will read this undoubtedly fascinating book.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #645 on: July 30, 2021, 02:05:50 PM »
So, are they kept (written) by the commander of the regiment?  And how detailed are they?  Are there any notes about someones bravery, what their job was and what they did in the end?  Or do they vary quite a bit in terms of detail?  Just wondering whether or not you or anyone else here knows as I'm curious.

PD

This is taken from a web page about the 1914-18 War:

WW1 British Army War Diaries
British Army War Diaries were handwritten or typed documents providing a daily account of the activities of a British, Dominion, Indian and Colonial Army unit on active service. This was a British Army Field Service Regulation dating from 1907. Sometimes the War Diary was designated as an Intelligence Summary.

It was the responsibility of the commander of every military unit – from the level of a battalion to a division – to ensure that the War Diary was kept up to date. It was to be written up each evening by a specific junior officer and usually signed off by a senior officer or the commanding officer.

The War Diary was compiled by month for every month that the unit was on active service.

In addition to the completed official War Diary Army Form, there might also be sketches, messages, maps and Operational Orders included as appendices.

Purpose of the War Diary
The purpose of the War Diary was to create a record of the operations of the unit on active service. It would record the part it was playing in a battle and would usually list the number of men who went into action and the number of casualties when the unit came out of the action. The information in a War Diary would be used by senior commanders for intelligence about the enemy opposite their units and as a historical record for future planning.

Offline J

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #646 on: July 30, 2021, 08:24:33 PM »
Thanks for helping me out here, Roasted. I was simply ignoring the interminably insufferable "J", and will continue to do so.

You're unique among authors in my experience, HotFXMan, in quite effectively killing (by your rude and immature comments) any enthusiasm I might formerly have had for reading your book, and more unfortunately (but I think temporarily) for the music of its subject.  Others here can genuflect to your prickly and sensitive ego as they wish.  My only offense was in not immediately acknowledging you as God in relation to understanding this composer's life and work, and by making a few innocuously questioning comments about it, - startlingly met by your blast of invective.  You should really get over this, but ignore me if you like.  I admit to (previously) lacking a grip on what exactly are "regimental war diaries".  So what.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 09:47:19 PM by J »

Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #647 on: July 30, 2021, 10:20:42 PM »
... I admit to (previously) lacking a grip on what exactly are "regimental war diaries".  So what.
So what? The “what” is that instead of politely enquiring about the diaries, or even better making some minimal effort to inform yourself about them (a simple Google exercise), you assumed that I had contradicted myself by having previously mentioned that Moeran did not keep a diary. You jumped to a conclusion, failed to verify the facts, and delightedly seized what you saw as an opportunity to call me out about it. Having now realised how foolish this makes you look, you endeavour to minimise things by saying “So what”.

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #648 on: July 30, 2021, 10:41:44 PM »
I get a sense world peace might be an illusion.
Oh well. Off to listen to 'Lonely Waters'.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Offline Irons

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #649 on: July 30, 2021, 10:42:39 PM »
So what? The “what” is that instead of politely enquiring about the diaries, or even better making some minimal effort to inform yourself about them (a simple Google exercise), you assumed that I had contradicted myself by having previously mentioned that Moeran did not keep a diary. You jumped to a conclusion, failed to verify the facts, and delightedly seized what you saw as an opportunity to call me out about it. Having now realised how foolish this makes you look, you endeavour to minimise things by saying “So what”.

One of the dangers of forums such as this it is easy to get your facts wrong and ending up feeling a bit of a numpty, we have all done it - I know I have! J has the grace to raise his hands and admit his error so that should be the end of it. Nobody has suffered and "So what" is right. Spilling of blood not required.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline J

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #650 on: July 30, 2021, 11:12:03 PM »
you assumed that I had contradicted myself by having previously mentioned that Moeran did not keep a diary and delightedly seized what you saw as an opportunity to call me out about it.

Pretty much right, Ian.  This is an internet forum, and sometimes we play in that fashion.  I contend you initiated the provocations.

Let's proceed by you/us talking about the book, - and the music.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 11:15:28 PM by J »

Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #651 on: July 30, 2021, 11:37:24 PM »
Pretty much right, Ian.  This is an internet forum, and sometimes we play in that fashion.  I contend you initiated the provocations.
So your justification is the tactics of the playgound: "please miss, he started it!".

Let's proceed by you/us talking about the book, - and the music.
If you really wanted to do that, you could have done so, without the needling.

Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #652 on: July 30, 2021, 11:44:16 PM »
This is taken from a web page about the 1914-18 War:

WW1 British Army War Diaries
British Army War Diaries were handwritten or typed documents providing a daily account of the activities of a British, Dominion, Indian and Colonial Army unit on active service. This was a British Army Field Service Regulation dating from 1907. Sometimes the War Diary was designated as an Intelligence Summary.

It was the responsibility of the commander of every military unit – from the level of a battalion to a division – to ensure that the War Diary was kept up to date. It was to be written up each evening by a specific junior officer and usually signed off by a senior officer or the commanding officer.

The War Diary was compiled by month for every month that the unit was on active service.

In addition to the completed official War Diary Army Form, there might also be sketches, messages, maps and Operational Orders included as appendices.

Purpose of the War Diary
The purpose of the War Diary was to create a record of the operations of the unit on active service. It would record the part it was playing in a battle and would usually list the number of men who went into action and the number of casualties when the unit came out of the action. The information in a War Diary would be used by senior commanders for intelligence about the enemy opposite their units and as a historical record for future planning.

It was the evidence from the West Yorkshire Regiment war diaries that revealed Moeran's true role during the First World War. These diaries can be examined at the UK National Archive or online via such websites as Ancestry.co.uk. In my book, I had the space for only a few quotations, but the entirety of the period Moeran spent at the front line is covered by the diary. It is fascinating reading.

Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #653 on: July 30, 2021, 11:48:55 PM »
It was 'J' who originally and enthusiastically alerted me to your PhD Thesis on Moeran and sent me a link. I certainly will be acquiring your book, however, in a forum where people have very different views, I wonder how helpful your above comment is?
Not helpful at all. It only served to let off steam in the face of what I regarded as unwarranted provocation. I apologise to you and the other forum members for this.

Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #654 on: July 31, 2021, 02:24:45 AM »
One of the dangers of forums such as this it is easy to get your facts wrong and ending up feeling a bit of a numpty, we have all done it - I know I have! J has the grace to raise his hands and admit his error so that should be the end of it. Nobody has suffered and "So what" is right. Spilling of blood not required.

Irons, if J had raised his hands and admitted his error and (perhaps) apologised, that would, indeed, be the end of it. However, what he has admitted is that his remarks were deliberately intended to needle me. I hardly think that counts as "having grace".

Online Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #655 on: July 31, 2021, 03:13:32 AM »
This is taken from a web page about the 1914-18 War:

WW1 British Army War Diaries
British Army War Diaries were handwritten or typed documents providing a daily account of the activities of a British, Dominion, Indian and Colonial Army unit on active service. This was a British Army Field Service Regulation dating from 1907. Sometimes the War Diary was designated as an Intelligence Summary.

It was the responsibility of the commander of every military unit – from the level of a battalion to a division – to ensure that the War Diary was kept up to date. It was to be written up each evening by a specific junior officer and usually signed off by a senior officer or the commanding officer.

The War Diary was compiled by month for every month that the unit was on active service.

In addition to the completed official War Diary Army Form, there might also be sketches, messages, maps and Operational Orders included as appendices.

Purpose of the War Diary
The purpose of the War Diary was to create a record of the operations of the unit on active service. It would record the part it was playing in a battle and would usually list the number of men who went into action and the number of casualties when the unit came out of the action. The information in a War Diary would be used by senior commanders for intelligence about the enemy opposite their units and as a historical record for future planning.
Thank you for the further info RS.

PD

Offline Roasted Swan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #656 on: July 31, 2021, 10:48:30 AM »
Can I just say - at the risk of "genuflecting"! (haven't had a good genuflect in years mind) - this is a really good book!!!  I'm not sure when I last found a biography so compelling.  The thing that is so hard to judge at a lifetime's distance is; was Moeran's drink problem (I had no idea he was such a regular attendee of the drink-driving courts!) simply a consequence of Heseltine's hedonistic influence or a delayed PTSD or both.......

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #657 on: July 31, 2021, 11:17:39 AM »
Can I just say - at the risk of "genuflecting"! (haven't had a good genuflect in years mind) - this is a really good book!!!
Good to hear!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Offline HotFXMan

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #658 on: July 31, 2021, 12:05:19 PM »
...The thing that is so hard to judge at a lifetime's distance is; was Moeran's drink problem (I had no idea he was such a regular attendee of the drink-driving courts!) simply a consequence of Heseltine's hedonistic influence or a delayed PTSD or both.......

As you rightly say, at this distance in time and with the limited amount of reliable evidence, it is difficult to say. My own view is that the assertion that Moeran had some form of PTSD deriving from his wartime experiences for the simple reason that he must have done - which was essentially Self's argument - lacks credibility in the light of what is known about his life during the early and mid 1920s. Self based his theory on assumptions about Moeran's wartime experiences, assumptions that, while perhaps reasonable at the time Self was writing, can now be shown to have been incorrect.

Moeran's documented drink-related issues all post-date his association with Heseltine and the infamous cottage, and there is no evidence of drink problems pertaining to Moeran's life before Heseltine. Taken together, I have dismissed Self's reasoning due to lack of evidence, and have asserted that Moeran's problems began with his meeting and close association with Heseltine.

However, I could be wrong, and am open to alternative suggestions.

Incidentally, thank you for your kind remarks about the book.

Offline J

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Re: EJ Moeran
« Reply #659 on: July 31, 2021, 08:43:24 PM »
Being a passionate Delius lover, I'm especially interested in the influence of Delius on Moeran, and also curious if there transpired any personal contact or communications between them.  It's in my head Moeran at some point travelled to Grez with the purpose of meeting Delius, but for some reason that meeting never happened.  Can you clarify briefly their relationship in this regard, HotFXMan (did Delius & Moeran at least correspond?), - and how extensively do you cover the Delius/Moeran interface in your book?