EJ Moeran

Started by tjguitar, April 15, 2007, 05:18:53 PM

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cilgwyn

Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 10:36:53 AM
Contextual information for cilgwyn re: my attic.

The attic is too low to stand up in so sadly I can't convert it into my secret CD or LP listening chamber. When we first moved in I did put boards on the floor of the attic, although, in general,  I'm most certainly not a 'DIY Type' (God forbid). However, the boards mean that I can crawl around up there without falling through the floor. Once I fell off a ladder I had put up to get into the attic. Stupidly, I'd put the ladder on a rug which then shifted so I fell out the attic and landed concussed on the floor. My wife was working on her computer in the same room but did not apparently notice that I had come crashing out the attic and was lying on the floor, in a catatonic state, behind where she was quietly working on her computer.
:laugh: Funny! Although,maybe not at the time?!! :( ;D That reminds me of my grandfather (my mother's father) who was known for his terrible,bodged DIY. He was putting down a roll of carpet on the stairs. He had the roll at the top of the stairs and sat down on it,to do something,with his back to the staircase. Of course,the roll shot off down the stairs,with him,on top of it,sending him crashing through the door at the bottom!!
I looked at the Dilkes again,now! I didn't have that one on Lp. My first encounter with that recording,was the HMV cd. Yes,I think I'd put that one in first place,now,too. The Chandos one is nice,though. The Bax symphonies had fantastic photographs,too. I kept a few of the Lp's. I think they're up in the attic,like yours?!

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 10:36:53 AM
Contextual information for cilgwyn re: my attic.

The attic is too low to stand up in so sadly I can't convert it into my secret CD or LP listening chamber. When we first moved in I did put boards on the floor of the attic, although, in general,  I'm most certainly not a 'DIY Type' (God forbid). However, the boards mean that I can crawl around up there without falling through the floor. Once I fell off a ladder I had put up to get into the attic. Stupidly, I'd put the ladder on a rug which then shifted so I fell out the attic and landed concussed on the floor. My wife was working on her computer in the same room but did not apparently notice that I had come crashing out the attic and was lying on the floor, in a catatonic state, behind where she was quietly working on her computer.

Too bad you laid those boards down in the attic. I think if you fell through the ceiling in a shower of plaster and splintered ceiling joists you'd finally get her attention.  :)

vandermolen

#222
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 22, 2019, 02:03:22 PM
:laugh: Funny! Although,maybe not at the time?!! :( ;D That reminds me of my grandfather (my mother's father) who was known for his terrible,bodged DIY. He was putting down a roll of carpet on the stairs. He had the roll at the top of the stairs and sat down on it,to do something,with his back to the staircase. Of course,the roll shot off down the stairs,with him,on top of it,sending him crashing through the door at the bottom!!
I looked at the Dilkes again,now! I didn't have that one on Lp. My first encounter with that recording,was the HMV cd. Yes,I think I'd put that one in first place,now,too. The Chandos one is nice,though. The Bax symphonies had fantastic photographs,too. I kept a few of the Lp's. I think they're up in the attic,like yours?!
Haha that really made me laugh  :).
My late father told me that once, in the days when they played the National Anthem in cinemas (I can just about remember that when I was a child), he was sitting at the end of a row with his legs crossed. When the National Anthem started he stood up but as one his legs was dead he fell over and rolled down the stairs during the playing of 'God Save the Queen' ( it could have been King I guess) - an act of great disrespect to His/Her Majesty.
I was playing that fine old HMV CD yesterday or maybe on Monday. It was a good series and more adventurous that the recent HMV which are mainly the most popular classics. That old series featured Poulenc's Organ Concerto and Sargent's  fine old version of Walton's First Symphony as well as an excellent coupling of VW's 5th and 6th symphonies conducted by Gibson and Berglund. For a long time that was the only CD version of those performances. The Moeran CD also featured great performances of John Ireland's 'London Overture' and 'Tintagel' by Bax conducted by Barbirolli. I hope that HMV survives the current crisis.

I dreamt last night that I was in the last classical music record shop in England! Sad isn't it?
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 22, 2019, 02:08:35 PM
Too bad you laid those boards down in the attic. I think if you fell through the ceiling in a shower of plaster and splintered ceiling joists you'd finally get her attention.  :)
Haha - not necessarily, although  it would have been spectacular. Actually there are some gaps in my boarding of the attic so who knows what the future will bring!
:)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

aukhawk

#224
Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 11:09:37 PM
... in the days when they played the National Anthem in cinemas (I can just about remember that when I was a child), ...

I'm fairly sure they still do that in my local cinema, here in leafiest Cheshire.

Just checked my very small Moeran collection, to stay on topic.  I have the Dilkes, but I doubt if I've played it in 10 years.  However I like the Sinfonietta and the Hickox and Boult (BBC recording) both get a run out every so often.  The Cello Concerto seems "a bit dry" (did I get that right?  ;) ) but the sleeve photo is on the Malvern Hills so that lifts it a bit.

vandermolen

Quote from: aukhawk on January 23, 2019, 12:44:09 AM
I'm fairly sure they still do that in my local cinema, here in leafiest Cheshire.

Just checked my very small Moeran collection, to stay on topic.  I have the Dilkes, but I doubt if I've played it in 10 years.  However I like the Sinfonietta and the Hickox and Boult (BBC recording) both get a run out every so often.  The Cello Concerto seems "a bit dry" (did I get that right?  ;) ) but the sleeve photo is on the Malvern Hills so that lifts it a bit.

The Sinfonietta is a fabulous work. Good to hear that your local cinema is still in the 1950s. It must be nice to have a local cinema. I love the Cello Concerto and especially the Coetmore/Boult performance. Her playing is a bit scratchy but all the more moving as she was Moeran's wife. I find the final climax in the last moving to be emotionally overwhelming. That performance is in my opinion so much better than the more 'polished' versions.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn

Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2019, 11:09:37 PM
Haha that really made me laugh  :).
My late father told me that once, in the days when they played the National Anthem in cinemas (I can just about remember that when I was a child), he was sitting at the end of a row with his legs crossed. When the National Anthem started he stood up but as one his legs was dead he fell over and rolled down the stairs during the playing of 'God Save the Queen' ( it could have been King I guess) - an act of great disrespect to His/Her Majesty.
I was playing that fine old HMV CD yesterday or maybe on Monday. It was a good series and more adventurous that the recent HMV which are mainly the most popular classics. That old series featured Poulenc's Organ Concerto and Sargent's  fine old version of Walton's First Symphony as well as an excellent coupling of VW's 5th and 6th symphonies conducted by Gibson and Berglund. For a long time that was the only CD version of those performances. The Moeran CD also featured great performances of John Ireland's 'London Overture' and 'Tintagel' by Bax conducted by Barbirolli. I hope that HMV survives the current crisis.

I dreamt last night that I was in the last classical music record shop in England! Sad isn't it?
Very funny! ;D And republicans think they have a tough time,these days!!

André

Quote from: vandermolen on January 19, 2019, 07:10:03 AM
A bit of information on Neville Dilkes, the conductor of my favourite version of Moeran's Symphony:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Dilkes

Thanks to you I now understand the great respect and love you have for the Dilkes recording. It is absolutely smashing compared to the ho-hum Lloyd-Jones on Naxos. I listened to both back to back today and again to the Dilkes.

Reading about him in the Wiki entry provides a clue (my hunch) for the difference. Dilkes founded the English Sinfonia (it was called the Midland Sinfonia in the beginning) and had been its director for 12 years when the recording of the Moeran symphony was put to disc. I think that this special connection accounts for the striking personality of this performance. Conductor and orchestra are in a symbiotic state, with the pulse of the music, its particular sway, the heaving and pulling of the phrases sounding utterly natural.

It helps that the recording is more immediate, more impactful, with important instrumental touches such as the swirling wind figurations or harp scales brought to the fore. The Lloyd-Jones is particularly good in the finale, with the Elgar and Sibelius connections registering strikingly. But the first three movements are definitely less interesting. The Naxos sound is wide-ranging, but lacking detail and transparency. Under Dilkes Moeran's symphony has a stature that approaches Walton's first.

vandermolen

Quote from: André on February 07, 2019, 05:55:37 PM
Thanks to you I now understand the great respect and love you have for the Dilkes recording. It is absolutely smashing compared to the ho-hum Lloyd-Jones on Naxos. I listened to both back to back today and again to the Dilkes.

Reading about him in the Wiki entry provides a clue (my hunch) for the difference. Dilkes founded the English Sinfonia (it was called the Midland Sinfonia in the beginning) and had been its director for 12 years when the recording of the Moeran symphony was put to disc. I think that this special connection accounts for the striking personality of this performance. Conductor and orchestra are in a symbiotic state, with the pulse of the music, its particular sway, the heaving and pulling of the phrases sounding utterly natural.

It helps that the recording is more immediate, more impactful, with important instrumental touches such as the swirling wind figurations or harp scales brought to the fore. The Lloyd-Jones is particularly good in the finale, with the Elgar and Sibelius connections registering strikingly. But the first three movements are definitely less interesting. The Naxos sound is wide-ranging, but lacking detail and transparency. Under Dilkes Moeran's symphony has a stature that approaches Walton's first.
I'm delighted that you like the recording Andre and was very interested to read your comparative analysis which rings true to me. Apparently the orchestra's original HQ was in Dilkes's living room! I'm sorry that he did nor record more. That Moeran recording, however, is something very special. I think that Lloyd-Jones is better in the inspiriting Sinfonietta rather than the Symphony, although I should listen again to his recording.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Roasted Swan

Quote from: vandermolen on February 07, 2019, 10:42:08 PM
I'm delighted that you like the recording Andre and was very interested to read your comparative analysis which rings true to me. Apparently the orchestra's original HQ was in Dilkes's living room! I'm sorry that he did nor record more. That Moeran recording, however, is something very special. I think that Lloyd-Jones is better in the inspiriting Sinfonietta rather than the Symphony, although I should listen again to his recording.

I'm 99% sure the Naxos/Moeran was a last minute substitution for a cancelled Beethoven session.  Hence its a classic read/record session that British orchestras can do so well but one that ultimately will reveal a deeper lack of familiarity or knowledge of the score.....

Irons

I am so pleased I invested in the Dilkes recording of Moeran's symphony. The recording I have lived with for many years is Sir Adrian's on Lyrita. I planned to do a comparison which I haven't got round to yet, but my impression based on a definitely dodgy musical memory is that Dilkes is lighter and swifter. Something I can't understand -  the Moeran symphony is sometimes accused of plagiarism, I do hear some similarity's with other works in Boult's recording, but do not in Dilkes!   
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 08, 2019, 01:04:05 AM
I'm 99% sure the Naxos/Moeran was a last minute substitution for a cancelled Beethoven session.  Hence its a classic read/record session that British orchestras can do so well but one that ultimately will reveal a deeper lack of familiarity or knowledge of the score.....
That is what I heard about the recording session. I wish Sinaisky's Prom performance was released on CD.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on February 08, 2019, 01:54:29 AM
I am so pleased I invested in the Dilkes recording of Moeran's symphony. The recording I have lived with for many years is Sir Adrian's on Lyrita. I planned to do a comparison which I haven't got round to yet, but my impression based on a definitely dodgy musical memory is that Dilkes is lighter and swifter. Something I can't understand -  the Moeran symphony is sometimes accused of plagiarism, I do hear some similarity's with other works in Boult's recording, but do not in Dilkes!

You might find this of interest although I'm not a great fan of Simon Heffer:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/5779831/Proms-2009-EJ-Moerans-Symphony-in-G-Minor.html
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

#233
Quote from: vandermolen on February 08, 2019, 09:29:27 AM
You might find this of interest although I'm not a great fan of Simon Heffer:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/5779831/Proms-2009-EJ-Moerans-Symphony-in-G-Minor.html

A good piece that gives Moeran's symphony due credit. I think it a crucial observation that Heseltine was born to drink and Moeran wasn't. Alcohol was the death of Moeran. I'm not sure I hear much RVW in the symphony. Sibelius is lurking in the background but Moeran is far from being alone there. The repeated notes at the end of the work are a bit too similar to the end of Sibelius 5 for comfort but other then that I have no problem with concerns of the work being derivative.

I think it quite likely you own a copy of "From Parry to Britten-British Music in Letters 1900-1945". One letter written two months prior to Heseltine's suicide from him to Moeran. I find fascinating for many reasons. I will copy here as of interest, I think, for anyone with even a slightest interest in British music.

12A Tite Street
   Chelsea S.W.3
6th X 1930

Dear Jack.

The piano was delivered on Saturday morning. It was brought in without any difficulty and is safely housed in a room with a gas fire.
I carefully avoided hearing Bridge's composition. Walton's work improves at every hearing. He is the best musician this country has produced for a long while. Lambert is perhaps more talented, but I do not feel that music is his ultimate mode of expression. His keen observation, sensibility, wit and critical intellect seem rather to point to literature as his medium, whereas Walton is specifically musical or nothing. Bax, as usual, drove me out of the hall after ten minutes. Ireland's concerto is very interesting but by no means a great or a particularly original work. My greatest musical experience has been Elgar's second symphony, of which the old gentleman gave a most moving performance.
The "Severn suite" is all balls, of course. We contrived to spend a very amusing day at the (Crystal) Palace; the promoter of the show (the annual brass band competition) was very pleased with the publicity given to it bu the Telegraph and caused the booze to flow freely.
If you can get Midland Regional on Thursday, listen to Debussy's Gigues - his last orchestral work and most fascinating; originally called Gigues tristes, it is a kind of grisly-ghostly discourse on "Weel may the keel row", which however is never stated in full but merely hinted at in sinister and distorted fragments. The orchestration is quite amazing, with ...........
I hope the leg is doing all that was expected of it since it has been let loose again.
All good wishes and many thanks again for the loan of the piano.

Yours ever

PETER W.
One Thiman (Thimple or otherwise) has infringed one of your copyrights. See this month's "Monthly Musical Record".


You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on February 08, 2019, 01:47:11 PM
A good piece that gives Moeran's symphony due credit. I think it a crucial observation that Heseltine was born to drink and Moeran wasn't. Alcohol was the death of Moeran. I'm not sure I hear much RVW in the symphony. Sibelius is lurking in the background but Moeran is far from being alone there. The repeated notes at the end of the work are a bit too similar to the end of Sibelius 5 for comfort but other then that I have no problem with concerns of the work being derivative.

I think it quite likely you own a copy of "From Parry to Britten-British Music in Letters 1900-1945". One letter written two months prior to Heseltine's suicide from him to Moeran. I find fascinating for many reasons. I will copy here as of interest, I think, for anyone with even a slightest interest in British music.

12A Tite Street
   Chelsea S.W.3
6th X 1930

Dear Jack.

The piano was delivered on Saturday morning. It was brought in without any difficulty and is safely housed in a room with a gas fire.
I carefully avoided hearing Bridge's composition. Walton's work improves at every hearing. He is the best musician this country has produced for a long while. Lambert is perhaps more talented, but I do not feel that music is his ultimate mode of expression. His keen observation, sensibility, wit and critical intellect seem rather to point to literature as his medium, whereas Walton is specifically musical or nothing. Bax, as usual, drove me out of the hall after ten minutes. Ireland's concerto is very interesting but by no means a great or a particularly original work. My greatest musical experience has been Elgar's second symphony, of which the old gentleman gave a most moving performance.
The "Severn suite" is all balls, of course. We contrived to spend a very amusing day at the (Crystal) Palace; the promoter of the show (the annual brass band competition) was very pleased with the publicity given to it bu the Telegraph and caused the booze to flow freely.
If you can get Midland Regional on Thursday, listen to Debussy's Gigues - his last orchestral work and most fascinating; originally called Gigues tristes, it is a kind of grisly-ghostly discourse on "Weel may the keel row", which however is never stated in full but merely hinted at in sinister and distorted fragments. The orchestration is quite amazing, with ...........
I hope the leg is doing all that was expected of it since it has been let loose again.
All good wishes and many thanks again for the loan of the piano.

Yours ever

PETER W.
One Thiman (Thimple or otherwise) has infringed one of your copyrights. See this month's "Monthly Musical Record".


Yes, the letter is very interesting and thank you got repeating it here. I don't think I have a copy of that book. I find the reference to the 'gas fire' a bit chilling in the circumstances (didn't Warlock put the cat out before gassing himself?) I think that Sibelius is a much greater influence on Moeran's Symphony than Vaughan Williams. The storm in the last movement echoes than in Tapiola but none of this takes anything away from the greatness of Moeran's Symphony as far as I'm concerned.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on February 08, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Yes, the letter is very interesting and thank you got repeating it here. I don't think I have a copy of that book. I find the reference to the 'gas fire' a bit chilling in the circumstances (didn't Warlock put the cat out before gassing himself?) I think that Sibelius is a much greater influence on Moeran's Symphony than Vaughan Williams. The storm in the last movement echoes than in Tapiola but none of this takes anything away from the greatness of Moeran's Symphony as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, why mention the gas fire in that context? I will never be able to listen to Elgar's "The Severn Suite" without thinking of Heseltine's critique of the work! Odd that the letter mentions most British composers of the period with one glaring omission.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on February 10, 2019, 12:57:54 AM
Yes, why mention the gas fire in that context? I will never be able to listen to Elgar's "The Severn Suite" without thinking of Heseltine's critique of the work! Odd that the letter mentions most British composers of the period with one glaring omission.

The explosive ending of Walton's First Symphony also echoes that of Sibelius's 5th Symphony but this in no way detracts from its greatness as far as I'm concerned.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

PS I've just ordered the 'Parry to Britten' book for 45p + postage.

thanks v much for alerting me to it.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on February 10, 2019, 01:20:44 AM
PS I've just ordered the 'Parry to Britten' book for 45p + postage.

thanks v much for alerting me to it.

The best 45p you have ever spent!

Haydn is all over Beethoven's music which is seen as the natural order. Parry's music is dismissed as being too "Germanic". For the English musical renaissance to take place, although largely based on folk music, required a template. Is it surprising that the greatest symphonist/composer of the generation, Sibelius, had some input. I love Walton's 1st Symphony and you are right Sibelius is there too. With Moeran perhaps I have missed it but I cannot think of a Sibelius influence in any other works. The excellent violin concerto for example is nothing like the Sibelius VC.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

calyptorhynchus

When I was listening to the Symphony recently I heard a passage which I thought sounded like an echo of vw's Symphony No 4 (written just before), but then I heard a passage I thought that vw had remembered when he wrote his 5th Symphony  :)
(Course I can't pinpoint these).
Once when listening to the slow movement I had an interesting experience of synesthesia. I was falling asleep and as I listened I had the distinct impression of floating in a cool rock pool on the beach, rising and falling with a gentle swell.
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton