EJ Moeran

[Irons]

Vandermolen - I agree with you on almost everything!  But that Sargent/Walton 1 is a definite clunker - slack and lacking vehemence and drive.  Compare the Sargent & Previn timings


Movement        Previn             Sargent
1                     13:49              15:05
2                     5:53                6:57
3                     11:21              10:17
4                     12:11              13:23

The one movement that needs reflection and breadth Sargent rushes and for the rest he lumbers along.  Even the New Philharmonia sound bored!  The Sargent version was the first I ever had and I loved it to bits.  THEN I heard others including Previn and suddenly the veil dropped from my eyes (and ears!).  Actually, I think this is just about the ONLY thing I disagree with you about - so that's pretty good!

I did say some time ago on another forum that I preferred Sargent to Previn. The response I received was incredulity, so mightily pleased to see vandermolen write the same. We may not be right, but for both of us to think the same way points to the fact there is something in Sargent's recording. Like you, it is the first recording I heard of this great symphony which makes it the template others are judged. "Lumber" is interesting as that is often said about Klemperer and I love Klemperer.

Sargent is without doubt the finest British conductor as an accompanist and for choral music. His Delius CC with du Pré is outstanding and his recording of Handel's Messiah is legendary. Every man and his dog has conducted Elgar's "Enigma" but none in my eyes match Sargent's EMI recording. I also like his "English Ballet Music" recording.

[Roasted Swan]

"Lumber" is interesting as that is often said about Klemperer and I love Klemperer.

Sargent is without doubt the finest British conductor as an accompanist and for choral music. His Delius CC with du Pré is outstanding and his recording of Handel's Messiah is legendary. Every man and his dog has conducted Elgar's "Enigma" but none in my eyes match Sargent's EMI recording. I also like his "English Ballet Music" recording.

I suspect - as with any piece - a performance will resonate with a listener when that version consciously or unconsciously resonates with that listener's own view of the work.  Perhaps "lumber" is harsh but Sargent's Walton 1 is certainly a broader/weightier version so perhaps underlining the Sibelian influence.  That is of course perfectly valid but for me Walton 1 is the epitome of the inter-war "Age of Anxiety" music - nervous, energetic in a uneasy slightly sour way - YET at the same time struggling for resolution and certainty.  For me, the closing pages of the first movement which embody this struggle between anxiety and certainty is one of the great passages in all music.  Sargent's battle is too easily won from too far out - there's a too comfortable predictability about his version.  Previn somehow catches this ill-ease - I think him being quite young at the time of his classic recording helps too.

Worth remembering Sargent ended up being the conductor of Walton's Troilus & Cressida for its premiere - something which caused Walton considerable ill-ease for a variety of reasons......

[vandermolen]

I know this may sound a bit weird and I'm aware that we are going a bit 'off piste' here (I wonder what EJ would make of it) but for me any performance of Walton's First Symphony stands or falls by the very opening, which (as far as I'm concerned) sets the tone (no pun intended) for my enjoyment of the whole symphony. That oboe at the start has to sound nervous, hesitant, tentative and above all fragile (not unlike myself really  ). With the RCA Previn recording it sounds just too confident for my liking. Sargent's opening is much better - best of all was Boult's early PYE recording. My brother had the Boult LP with its garish/psychedelic cover image) and I got to know the work through that recording and the Sargent was my first LP of the work and I remember my youthful excitement when I actually had my own LP copy of the symphony. I'm sure that these early experiences influenced my view of those versions. I'm listening to the Sargent again now and I do not find it lacking in nervous energy and excitement including at that marvellously inspiriting climax of the first movement. My brother regards this as one of the great 'despair turning to defiance' symphonies - and I agree with him. I actually, like the reviewer Rob Barnett, prefer Previn's later RPO recording of the work (which he described as 'Homeric'). Of more recent recordings the one by Bryden Thomson is one of my favourites. Most people do prefer the Previn (RCA) to the Sargent and of course I respect that and Previn remains one of my favourite conductors.

Here's that famous old LP - I loved the cover image:

[Biffo]

I did say some time ago on another forum that I preferred Sargent to Previn. The response I received was incredulity, so mightily pleased to see vandermolen write the same. We may not be right, but for both of us to think the same way points to the fact there is something in Sargent's recording. Like you, it is the first recording I heard of this great symphony which makes it the template others are judged. "Lumber" is interesting as that is often said about Klemperer and I love Klemperer.

Sargent is without doubt the finest British conductor as an accompanist and for choral music. His Delius CC with du Pré is outstanding and his recording of Handel's Messiah is legendary. Every man and his dog has conducted Elgar's "Enigma" but none in my eyes match Sargent's EMI recording. I also like his "English Ballet Music" recording.

The very first LP I bought was Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams and after that nothing, don't really know why, perhaps he just wasn't on the shelves of the record shops I frequented. I briefly discussed this a while ago and considered buying the Warner Icon box but there wasn't enough in it to tempt me.

[vandermolen]

The very first LP I bought was Sargent conducting Vaughan Williams and after that nothing, don't really know why, perhaps he just wasn't on the shelves of the record shops I frequented. I briefly discussed this a while ago and considered buying the Warner Icon box but there wasn't enough in it to tempt me.

Oh, I liked that set, Bliss, Rubbra PCs, VW, Holst, Walton, Bax and I also liked the Schubert 'Unfinished' and Beethoven 'Eroica' although not my usual cup of tea. Above all, IMO, it features the greatest recorded performance of Sibelius's 5th Symphony or at least the one that moves me most.

[Biffo]

Oh, I liked that set, Bliss, Rubbra PCs, VW, Holst, Walton, Bax and I also liked the Schubert 'Unfinished' and Beethoven 'Eroica' although not my usual cup of tea. Above all, IMO, it features the greatest recorded performance of Sibelius's 5th Symphony or at least the one that moves me most.

Perhaps I will have to give it some more consideration. Last year I overdosed on Icon boxes and it a while to clear the backlog.

[vandermolen]

Perhaps I will have to give it some more consideration. Last year I overdosed on Icon boxes and it a while to clear the backlog.

In recent years I bought the Sargent, Handley, Groves and Berglund sets (last two not Icon I think). I especially enjoy the Sargent, Groves and Berglund sets.

[Roasted Swan]

Here's that famous old LP - I loved the cover image:

Yes indeed that was the LP version I had too - given me a present by my parents one teen-aged birthday together with a copy of the score.  I remember reading - and being impressed by - the note from Walton to Sargent reproduced on the back cover.  My father had the garish Pye/Boult LP too - long since given away......

Despair to Defiance is a perfect description!

[vandermolen]

Yes indeed that was the LP version I had too - given me a present by my parents one teen-aged birthday together with a copy of the score.  I remember reading - and being impressed by - the note from Walton to Sargent reproduced on the back cover.  My father had the garish Pye/Boult LP too - long since given away......

Despair to Defiance is a perfect description!

I'm impressed that you were given the score as well - would have been lost on me. I also remember being impressed with the note from Walton to Sargent reproduced on the LP's sleeve.

To bring this thread back on track I thought that I'd say how much I enjoyed this historic performance of Moeran's 'Sinfonietta' recorded at a live concert in the presence of EJM at the Albert Hall in 1947. Beecham evidently thought highly of the work. He takes the first two movements considerably slower than other performances I have heard but he invests them with great dignity - there are some wonderful horn solos in the first movement and the slow movement, as has been commented on before, sounds more Delian than usual. The finale is especially inspiring. The recording is rather boxed-in but that did not detract from my enjoyment of this memorable performance:

[Roasted Swan]

To bring this thread back on track I thought that I'd say how much I enjoyed this historic performance of Moeran's 'Sinfonietta' recorded at a live concert in the presence of EJM at the Albert Hall in 1947.

Not that I have listened to this performance - but its available to hear on the Moeran website to download:

http://www.moeran.net/Audio/Sinfonietta.html

Shame this site went moribund over a decade ago.  There are some good downloads to be found here - the Boult/Sammons/Violin concerto is well worth a listen.  Sammons is one of my very favourite players.

http://www.moeran.net/sammons.html

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

To bring this thread back on track I thought that I'd say how much I enjoyed this historic performance of Moeran's 'Sinfonietta' recorded at a live concert in the presence of EJM at the Albert Hall in 1947. Beecham evidently thought highly of the work. He takes the first two movements considerably slower than other performances I have heard but he invests them with great dignity - there are some wonderful horn solos in the first movement and the slow movement, as has been commented on before, sounds more Delian than usual. The finale is especially inspiring. The recording is rather boxed-in but that did not detract from my enjoyment of this memorable performance:

I have listened to it. Yes, fine performance. Beecham is indeed slower than usual in the first two movements, but it works. He also makes the melancholy middle of the slow movement weightier and, yes, that much more Delian.


And thanks to Roasted Swan for the link.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Oh, and at the end of the recording you can hear the pronunciation of the name Moeran by the presenter... MO-ran. The BBC is usually very precise in these matters, and the composer was still alive.

[vandermolen]

Oh, and at the end of the recording you can hear the pronunciation of the name Moeran by the presenter... MO-ran. The BBC is usually very precise in these matters, and the composer was still alive.

Good point Johan. Also the booklet says that Moeran was in the audience and at the end of the Sinfonietta Beecham turned around to face the audience and looked around until he spotted the shy composer, who apparently went very red in the face and did his best to 'disappear'. And yes, it is an interesting and weightier performance than the others I have heard. I'm sorry that there is no recording of Beecham conducting Moeran's Symphony.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Good point Johan. Also the booklet says that Moeran was in the audience and at the end of the Sinfonietta Beecham turned around to face the audience and looked around until he spotted the shy composer, who apparently went very red in the face and did his best to 'disappear'.

QED!


My introduction to Moeran also came courtesy of the BBC. Radio 4, to be precise. One evening during the 1980s in a programme called (iirc) Talking About Music, presenter Antony Hopkins discussed Moeran's Symphony. And he pronounced it MO-ran, too.

[Biffo]

Interesting looking new release:
I'm unaware of any other Barbirolli Moeran recording.

This arrived today, so far only listened to the Delius (1945, v. ropey sound) and RVW - possibly for Barbirolli completists only.

There is an oddity. The booklet points out that the Moeran Serenade originally had 8 movements but two were dropped at the insistence of his publisher. This performance restores the Intermezzo but drops the Air so there is still only 6 movements - the booklet note writer seems unaware of this. Handley/Ulster has all 8 movements.

[vandermolen]

This arrived today, so far only listened to the Delius (1945, v. ropey sound) and RVW - possibly for Barbirolli completists only.

There is an oddity. The booklet points out that the Moeran Serenade originally had 8 movements but two were dropped at the insistence of his publisher. This performance restores the Intermezzo but drops the Air so there is still only 6 movements - the booklet note writer seems unaware of this. Handley/Ulster has all 8 movements.

Yes, Barbirolli's performance of the Serenade is excellent although, at the start it sounds like it was recorded under water. The sound does improve however. I was struck by the similarity between the opening of Delius's 'A Song of Summer' and the opening of 'A London Symphony' by Vaughan Williams, composed some years earlier. Haven't listened to the Tallis Fantasia yet. You could be right with your '...for Barbirolli completists' comment. I think that his Alwyn releases (symphonies and shorter works) were much more interesting.

[Biffo]

Yes, Barbirolli's performance of the Serenade is excellent although, at the start it sounds like it was recorded under water. The sound does improve however. I was struck by the similarity between the opening of Delius's 'A Song of Summer' and the opening of 'A London Symphony' by Vaughan Williams, composed some years earlier. Haven't listened to the Tallis Fantasia yet. You could be right with your '...for Barbirolli completists' comment. I think that his Alwyn releases (symphonies and shorter works) were much more interesting.

I will have to listen to my stereo Barbirolli recording for a comparison with the London symphony - on this recording there is too much extraneous noise. Also, I will have to check out the Alwyn recordings.

Edit: Sorry, can't hear the resemblance. The Delius emerges out a deep grumbling sound but that is an artefact of the recording. Listening to Barbirolli's beautiful stereo recording is a very different experience.

Second edit: Take that back, on a second listen to the early recording I can now hear the resemblance.

[vandermolen]

I've been listening again to Barbirolli's recording of Moeran's 'Serenade'. It has made me revise my view of the work and the CD. Despite the problems of the recording it is the most deeply felt of the several recordings of that work, which I now find much more poignant and moving than usual. So, I'm glad to have the CD. Must get round to the Tallis Fantasia next.

[Roasted Swan]

I see that the next copy of the BBC Music Magazine (called "July" but on sale in the UK from this coming week - mid June) has as its cover disc the Sinaisky/BBC PO Proms performance of the Moeran Symphony from a few years back.  Very fine as I recall.  Parry is named as the 'filler' but the title of the work in question is not given.  Certainly I'll be buying a copy......

[vandermolen]

I see that the next copy of the BBC Music Magazine (called "July" but on sale in the UK from this coming week - mid June) has as its cover disc the Sinaisky/BBC PO Proms performance of the Moeran Symphony from a few years back.  Very fine as I recall.  Parry is named as the 'filler' but the title of the work in question is not given.  Certainly I'll be buying a copy......

OMG!!! That is such great news. I wrote to them years ago asking if they could consider issuing it as their cover CD. I was at the concert and am so looking forward to hearing it again. Thanks so much RS for letting us know. I shall be dashing out to WH Smith in due course to snap up a copy.