Symphonies where the slow movement is the weakest

[kyjo]

This thread topic crossed my mind yesterday while listening to Stenhammar's 2nd symphony. Often times, the slow movement is the expressive high point of a symphony and contains some of its finest music. However, there are a few instances where I feel this not to be the case:

Berlioz Fantastique
Bruckner 4
Gade 1
Rachmaninov 1
Sibelius 5 (though it's not properly "slow")
Stenhammar 2
Svendsen 1 and 2
Walton 1

Of course, I don't intend to imply that these slow movements are bad by any means, just that they don't necessarily live up to the high standards set by the other movements IMO.

[kyjo]

I should also add that the slow movement is often my least favorite movement of Classical Era symphonies, but that's more an issue of personal taste.

[Jo498]

Schumann 3rd, if one counts the short 3rd movement as slow movement. The also slowish 4th movement (that brass "Cologne Cathedral" movement) is much better.

Mendelssohn 5th has also a very short and perfunctory slow movement.

Mahler 7, although it has not real slow movement, the 4th mvmt might be the best candidate.

Haydn 94 although it is the most famous and I do like Haydn variation movements. Quite a few early Haydn symphonies, e.g. #39 is I think weaker than some other of the famous minor mode symphonies of that time only/mainly by a "flat" and rather boring slow movement. There are also some early/middle Haydn symphonies where slow movements just get too long for their material if both repeats are played, especially if they are reduced in scoring for strings only. (Of course there are also great and original early slow movements in Haydn with prominent wind or solo string parts or otherwise atmospheric and interesting)
OTOH in many 18th century pieces the minuet is so obviously modest and perfunctory that the slow movement is still superior; Haydn is an exception here as he very often does something a bit interesting even with short and simple minuets or adds very charming trios that make them more memorable than a certain type of slow movement.

[kyjo]

Schumann 3rd, if one counts the short 3rd movement as slow movement. The also slowish 4th movement (that brass "Cologne Cathedral" movement) is much better.

Very much agreed. The 3rd movement seemed pretty unnecessary and uninspired the last time I listened to this work.

[Jo498]

I find the "Rhenish" very uneven. The first movement is great, the second is also quite nice and can pass for a folksy dance movement in line with the vague theme. The Cologne cathedral contrapuntal brass movement might be the most original at all, but the brief 3rd movement seems superfluous and I find the 5th movement also not very inspired and it works only in contrast with the dark brass one before as another "popular gathering" or so. I clearly favor 19th century symphonies over most attempts at programmatic music but sometimes one has the impression that some movements are only there because of the traditional form...

[André]

That's easy: Beethoven's 5th.

[Jo498]

Probably the most underrated slow Beethoven movement, but I could agree that like the finale of the piece it needs its context/environment to work.

[Karl Henning]

This thread topic crossed my mind yesterday while listening to Stenhammar's 2nd symphony. Often times, the slow movement is the expressive high point of a symphony and contains some of its finest music. However, there are a few instances where I feel this not to be the case:

Berlioz Fantastique

Oh, you don't mean it!

[Mountain Goat]

Very much agreed. The 3rd movement seemed pretty unnecessary and uninspired the last time I listened to this work.

Schumann's 3rd is what immediately came to mind when I saw the thread title - not surprised to see it mentioned already! I think it would work just as well without that movement, making it a standard 4-movement symphony with the "cathedral" movement taking its rightful place as the slow movement.

Mendelssohn 5th has also a very short and perfunctory slow movement.

I agree with this, in fact it sounds more like a slow introduction to the finale than a movement in its own right. But one thing I can't help noticing about it, the opening sounds uncannily like Shostakovich's famous waltz - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz-wAwec-UA and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phBThlPTBEg

[Symphonic Addict]

This thread topic crossed my mind yesterday while listening to Stenhammar's 2nd symphony. Often times, the slow movement is the expressive high point of a symphony and contains some of its finest music. However, there are a few instances where I feel this not to be the case:

Berlioz Fantastique
Bruckner 4
Gade 1
Rachmaninov 1
Sibelius 5 (though it's not properly "slow")
Stenhammar 2
Svendsen 1 and 2
Walton 1

Of course, I don't intend to imply that these slow movements are bad by any means, just that they don't necessarily live up to the high standards set by the other movements IMO.

Svendsen and Walton??? 

I endorse the others, though.

I should also add that the slow movement is often my least favorite movement of Classical Era symphonies, but that's more an issue of personal taste.

For me it's the Minuet. I find them a little repetitive and without much substance.

[Symphonic Addict]

Sibelius 3
Brahms 1
Tchaikovsky 2 (II) (not properly a slow movement)
Mendelssohn 5
Saint-Saëns 3
Mahler 1

[vandermolen]

Walton's 1st Symphony (I prefer the slow movement of his 2nd Symphony).

[amw]

Beethoven 5, 6 & 9 (and the slower of the two internal movements in 1), Nielsen 2, Sibelius 5, Prokofiev 6, Shostakovich 1 & 15 (and the slower of the two internal movements in 10), Bruckner 4 & 5, etc.

(I would even add Mahler 6 but I suspect I'd catch some hands for that.)

[André]

Beethoven 5, 6 & 9 (and the slower of the two internal movements in 1), Nielsen 2, Sibelius 5, Prokofiev 6, Shostakovich 1 & 15 (and the slower of the two internal movements in 10), Bruckner 4 & 5, etc.

(I would even add Mahler 6 but I suspect I'd catch some hands for that.)

In the proper hands the slow mvmt of Bruckner 4 is a mesmerizing funeral march.

Although very fine in itself the Andante from Mahler 6 suffers from being sandwiched between the towering 1st (A/S order) or last (S/A order) movements.

[Symphonic Addict]

The composer who can't be named here is Atterberg, isn't him? Or perhaps in his 9th, but there I don't remember the slow parts of it since it was an evident failure as a engaging and convincing symphony, I'm afraid, IMO. Even in Dvorak's 8th I consider its II. not as good as the others for a number of reasons.

[kyjo]

Svendsen and Walton??? 

I endorse the others, though.


For me it's the Minuet. I find them a little repetitive and without much substance.

With the symphonies I mentioned, it's more a matter of the other movements of the piece being so excellent that the slow movements have a hard time living up to them, even though they're not necessarily weak in themselves.

Actually I agree with you about the Minuets generally being the weakest movements in Classical Era symphonies, though I often have trouble with the slow movements as well. I'm thinking of Mozart's 29th, in particular. Incredibly vital and engaging outer movements, but a generic and rather uninteresting slow movement (to my ears).

[kyjo]

The composer who can't be named here is Atterberg, isn't him? Or perhaps in his 9th, but there I don't remember the slow parts of it since it was an evident failure as a engaging and convincing symphony, I'm afraid, IMO. Even in Dvorak's 8th I consider its II. not as good as the others for a number of reasons.

How dare you mention Atterberg in this thread, Cesar! Certainly, the slow movements of Symphonies 1-8 are all perfectly crafted gems of sumptuous melodic ecstasy and atmospheric radiance. But I agree with you about the slow sections of the 9th; they're less engaging than the more vigorous ones. Regarding Dvorak's 8th, I adore all four movements equally. I think the slow movement is just glorious!

[Symphonic Addict]

With the symphonies I mentioned, it's more a matter of the other movements of the piece being so excellent that the slow movements have a hard time living up to them, even though they're not necessarily weak in themselves.

Precisely, it was my initial thought.

[vers la flamme]

Do not agree with Bruckner's 4th. I love that andante.

[kyjo]

Do not agree with Bruckner's 4th. I love that andante.

I agree with André, it needs a great performance to really come alive. I debated including on my list, 'cause I definitely enjoy it for the most part.