Bach French Suites

[Mandryka]

Way back when, I had a fondness for Bradley Brookshire. I have to delisted. I love Van Asperen. That harpsichord he plays is something special.

Same harpsichord (Christian Vater 1638) in Dantone's Scarlatti v7. Different recording standards, I bet the Dantone gives a truer impression of someone in the hall. The Dantone is very good if you're in the mood for the music.

[milk]

Same harpsichord (Christian Vater 1638) in Dantone's Scarlatti v7. Different recording standards, I bet the Dantone gives a truer impression of someone in the hall. The Dantone is very good if you're in the mood for the music.

I'll check that out. Above I wanted to type "re-listen" to Brookshire. Truer than Brookshire or Van Asperen? The Van Asperen seems close-miked.

[Mandryka]

I'll check that out. Above I wanted to type "re-listen" to Brookshire. Truer than Brookshire or Van Asperen? The Van Asperen seems close-miked.

The Brookshire is a harpsichord d'apres Vater 1738, I think "d'après" is a bit of a vague expression, to me it sounds very different. As far as I know Dantone uses the the Nuremberg Vater.  And yes Asperen French Suites recording is closely miked, which makes it more symphonic, all the overtones are writ larger than life. Arguably that's not the best way to bring out the poetry in the music. Arguably.

[Mandryka]

The Brookshire is a harpsichord d'après Vater 1738, I think "d'après" is a bit of a vague expression, to me it sounds very different. As far as I know Dantone uses the the Nuremberg Vater.  And yes Asperen French Suites recording is closely miked, which makes it more symphonic, all the overtones are writ larger than life. Arguably that's not the best way to bring out the poetry in the music. Arguably.

I was mistaken about this -- Dantone's also d'après the one in Nuremberg -- his made by someone called Olivier Fadini.

[aukhawk]

I'm very fond of the French Suites - probably my favourite Bach keyboard music alongside (but very unalike) The Art of Fugue.  I do prefer listening to piano and for a very long time my favoured recording was by Joanna MacGregor, though I now understand that this is a somewhat over-romanticised approach.  More recently, my preference has shifted to Zhu Xiao-Mei who plays these pieces, already compact and lean in their very nature, with a wonderfully light and fleet touch.


Bach, French Suites, Zhu Xiao-Mei

(Love that cover image which pre-dates the current fad for 'socially distanced' cover art by some years.)

[Iota]

On piano:
Wolfgang Rübsam

I don't always like him, but Rubsam on piano gets so much more out the French Suites than anybody else I've heard. Hearing them with him for the first time was a bit like stepping out into the fresh country air for the first time, having only ever lived in a busy city centre. I have valued them much more since.

[SonicMan46]

I'm very fond of the French Suites - probably my favourite Bach keyboard music alongside (but very unalike) The Art of Fugue.  I do prefer listening to piano and for a very long time my favoured recording was by Joanna MacGregor, though I now understand that this is a somewhat over-romanticised approach.  More recently, my preference has shifted to Zhu Xiao-Mei who plays these pieces, already compact and lean in their very nature, with a wonderfully light and fleet touch.


Bach, French Suites, Zhu Xiao-Mei..............

Thanks Aukhawk for the comments on Zhu Xiao-Mei - she has done a lot of Bach which I've not heard - but after your thoughts above, I listened to her perform the French Suites on Spotify and really enjoyed!  Now, she does these works in 79 mins (on 1 disc) vs. 94 mins for Ivo Janssen and 140 mins for Suzuki on harpsichord - don't believe her tempos are that fast so must be skipping a lot of 'repeats' - attached are excellent reviews of this performance including one that discusses using (or not) repeats by a comparison of David Cates to Suzuki.  So, I'd be curious about comments on the importance (positive or negative) of incorporating the repeats, seems to come up often with many different composers and their compositions.  Dave

[Mandryka]

Hi : premont : - appreciate your 'expert' advise - well, I do have Tilney & Janssen covered; a while back for harpsichord, I culled out David Cates and added Suszuki and happy w/ his performances - SO, adding Rübsam on the lute harpsichord seems reasonable.  Thanks again - Dave

What Rübsam on lute harpsichord shows is that the music can be treated as fundamentally contrapuntal - with voices which are as independent of each other as the singers in a madrigal by Marenzio. For me, it has for the moment made it hard to enjoy other ways, I'm sure that's a temporary thing! He said that it's hard to play like that, and I can imagine it is because you somehow have to make it all cohere. There's a lot of Rubsam's poetry in his lute harpsichord Bach, not just Bach's.

I think now that all the keyboard players who play it in a non-madrigalesque way are taking the default easy option - it's a limitation.

[Mandryka]

When BBC Radio 3 Building a Library did The French Suites they chose two recordings - Mortensen and Hewitt. I quite like the large scale interpretation by Mortensen, but I hadn't heard the Hewitt until just now. It has some memorable moments which make it not totally without interest  - some slow movements which she plays with a quiet intensity. But on the whole I think this confirms my view that Bach is not one of Hewitt's strengths.

[Mandryka]

I don't always like him, but Rubsam on piano gets so much more out the French Suites than anybody else I've heard. Hearing them with him for the first time was a bit like stepping out into the fresh country air for the first time, having only ever lived in a busy city centre. I have valued them much more since.

I think that I prefer Andrea Bacchetti to Rübsam's piano recording, at least when the wind is blowing south.

[Iota]

I think that I prefer Andrea Bacchetti to Rübsam's piano recording, at least when the wind is blowing south.

Thanks, will check the Bacchetti out.

[aukhawk]

Thanks Aukhawk for the comments on Zhu Xiao-Mei - she has done a lot of Bach which I've not heard - but after your thoughts above, I listened to her perform the French Suites on Spotify and really enjoyed!  Now, she does these works in 79 mins (on 1 disc) vs. 94 mins for Ivo Janssen and 140 mins for Suzuki on harpsichord - don't believe her tempos are that fast so must be skipping a lot of 'repeats' ...

Interesting - I wasn't aware of that.  Personally I'm not very interested in structural considerations but, if there are repeats to be had then yes I want to hear them - because I'm listening to the music because I like it, so because I like it the more the better.  That said, the French Suites are 'little' pieces by nature and don't need to be overplayed.  One commentator describes them as being a development from the Two-part Inventions.  Rubsam (lute-hpschd) clearly an interesting option here.  I imagine I like Zhu Xiao-Mei because she doesn't linger over the Sarabandes - I'm afraid I always find Sarabandes tedious in all of Bach's Suites (the Cello Suites the worst).  Suzuki (who I do like in the Partitas) I can imagine would seem over-respectful in this lighter music.

MacGregor also fitted them onto a single CD, and for probably 20 years that was the only recording I knew.  Partly because of the extreme duration, the final two tracks wouldn't play.      It was so wonderful when music started to become available as downloads and I was able to visit A well-known online book store and buy just those two tracks for a few pence each!   

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I think that I prefer Andrea Bacchetti to Rübsam's piano recording, at least when the wind is blowing south.

Interesting comparison as the two recordings exhibit very different approaches. May I call the Bacchetti a minimalist approach? He doesn't sell a divergent or unique interpretation. Sometimes I feel that his performance is faceless and it lacks color, feeling, voice, etc. But sometimes his performance sounds refined and purposefully restrained like a haiku masterpiece. Difficult album! Also I don't like the reverb in the recording much.

As for the Rubsam piano, it is very distinctive, or deviating to some people. I support his intention to present his unique interpretation/expression, but the interpretation doesn't appeal to me personally. I have a similar opinion about the style of Jean-Yves Thibaudet as well. Anyway, glad to see that some people like Rubsam's aestheticism. It is very important and productive that some players keep presenting unique perspectives and innovative interpretations.

[Mandryka]

Interesting comparison as the two recordings exhibit very different approaches. May I call the Bacchetti a minimalist approach? He doesn't sell a divergent or unique interpretation. Sometimes I feel that his performance is faceless and it lacks color, feeling, voice, etc. But sometimes his performance sounds refined and purposefully restrained like a haiku masterpiece. Difficult album! Also I don't like the reverb in the recording much.

If he were playing on a harpsichord, that would be a justifiable thing to say, though maybe not one which would stand up to scrutiny. But he isn't, he's playing on a modern piano. And to bring such an informed approach to playing baroque music on that of all keyboard instruments is rare - in that sense it reminds me of Virginia Black's partitas recording.  I hadn't noticed a problem with the sound.

[milk]

If he were playing on a harpsichord, that would be a justifiable thing to say, though maybe not one which would stand up to scrutiny. But he isn't, he's playing on a modern piano. And to bring such an informed approach to playing baroque music on that of all keyboard instruments is rare - in that sense it reminds me of Virginia Black's partitas recording.  I hadn't noticed a problem with the sound.

Bacchetti's Goldbergs are brisk but full of ornamentation. I'm only finding French suites 5&6 on Apple. It seems rather mainstream compared to Rubsam. I guess everything does. But there artistry here and I wouldn't say it's "minimal." I would say he has a sense of the flow of the music. Perhaps it's on the side of elegance.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

If he were playing on a harpsichord, that would be a justifiable thing to say, though maybe not one which would stand up to scrutiny. But he isn't, he's playing on a modern piano. And to bring such an informed approach to playing baroque music on that of all keyboard instruments is rare - in that sense it reminds me of Virginia Black's partitas recording.  I hadn't noticed a problem with the sound.

I will check the Virginia Black recording!