Author Topic: Jean-Philippe Rameau  (Read 29719 times)

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2016, 04:44:11 AM »
Good. Now that this is over with, let us talk about Rameau.

Does anyone know of a good recording of Platée? Agnew's isn't ideal and the reviews of Minkowski's put me off.

I don't have a recording but I've seen Minkowski do it and enjoyed it.

Have you seen this? (in French)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/coENn4UzHsY&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=CE510E7C0C9AA07A&amp;playnext=1&amp;index=55" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/coENn4UzHsY&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=CE510E7C0C9AA07A&amp;playnext=1&amp;index=55</a>
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline JCBuckley

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2016, 05:27:43 AM »
Good. Now that this is over with, let us talk about Rameau.

Does anyone know of a good recording of Platée? Agnew's isn't ideal and the reviews of Minkowski's put me off.

I think the Minkowski CD recording is fine - apart from the lack of libretto with the current reissue. Haven't heard the DVD performance, though.

Drasko

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2016, 05:48:02 AM »
Minkowski DVD is fantastic, in all aspects: singing, acting, staging. One of best opera on DVDs I've ever watched.

Minkowski on CD I haven't heard, but are there that many choices?

Agnew and Rousset, neither commercially released as far as I know.

Malgoire, who's never been a favorite of mine in anything or 70 year old Rosbaud.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2016, 06:31:41 AM »
I don't think it is an interesting result or even "musicological" in the normal sense of that word that Bach is "greater" than Rameau. You will hardly find a research paper on such topics and I cannot imagine a university level course on 18th century music neglecting Rameau (or having as take-home-message "Bach > Rameau")
Who debated such stuff on a panel? One would seriously hope that scholars would refuse even entering into such moot debates.

I don't know much about Rameau but it seems without a doubt that he was a very important composer and, as has been pointed out, very influential both for post-baroque opera and for music theory.
His influence on French music, even as late as the late 19th century might be comparable to that of Bach on Mendelssohn or Brahms.

Whereas Vivaldi influence had already waned within his own lifetime. His central achievement was the high baroque concerto form that was basically copied by Bach (sometimes almost literally) and other composers. But he was almost forgotten before he was dead.

So I do not know about better and doubt that it makes a lot of sense here but the historical influence of Rameau on a longer timescale seems to have been larger than Vivaldi's.
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Offline Chronochromie

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2016, 10:09:20 AM »
Minkowski DVD is fantastic, in all aspects: singing, acting, staging. One of best opera on DVDs I've ever watched.

Minkowski on CD I haven't heard, but are there that many choices?

Agnew and Rousset, neither commercially released as far as I know.

Malgoire, who's never been a favorite of mine in anything or 70 year old Rosbaud.

I'll take your word on Minkowski (I do love his recording of Hippolyte et Aricie) and I didn't know about the Rousset, I'll give it a try, thanks!

I don't think it is an interesting result or even "musicological" in the normal sense of that word that Bach is "greater" than Rameau. You will hardly find a research paper on such topics and I cannot imagine a university level course on 18th century music neglecting Rameau (or having as take-home-message "Bach > Rameau")
Who debated such stuff on a panel? One would seriously hope that scholars would refuse even entering into such moot debates.

I don't know much about Rameau but it seems without a doubt that he was a very important composer and, as has been pointed out, very influential both for post-baroque opera and for music theory.
His influence on French music, even as late as the late 19th century might be comparable to that of Bach on Mendelssohn or Brahms.

Whereas Vivaldi influence had already waned within his own lifetime. His central achievement was the high baroque concerto form that was basically copied by Bach (sometimes almost literally) and other composers. But he was almost forgotten before he was dead.

Indeed. One should not underestimate Rameau's influence on the history of music. Of course, if Rameau had not been influential at all I would still think that the quality of his works puts him among the greatest of Baroque composers without a doubt. All of his operas have not been recorded yet, so the reappraisal of his music is not over and in fact it's growing, with recordings of his works more frequent than ever. I do think his popularity will not quite approach that of Bach, Handel and Vivaldi if only because most of his best work is opera, a genre that even many lovers of classical music dislike (although suites from his operas are quite popular, it's still not the real deal). But he's already recognized by many academics as a major player, now the music itself is catching up.

Offline Que

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2016, 03:23:30 PM »
Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but I teach at a university, and am in constant contact with peers in England, Australia, Germany, Hungary and (sometimes) a colleague in Romania.  My field is history (retired from nuclear physics - long story) but as an avid listener, after hours dialogue between similar folks goes on constantly.  And the lectures and textbooks support my statements.

No one's putting down Rameau - he's a fine composer - but they don't put him in the same league with J.S. Bach.

That's just not going to happen.  There's been no significant change in the opinion of the overwhelming majority of music critics about Bach's standing for well over a century.

Academics don't really rank composers, do they? In any case, Rameau is more than just a "fine composer", as is evident from his music. It just so happens that he had a big influence in the development of Western Classical music. I don't know the criteria that those nameless academics use to determine that Bach is unquestionably the better composer, it seems to me that their styles are very different and a preference for one over the other depends on that.

That Rameau is on the same level as Bach is just my opinion based purely on the quality I see in his music, which I know not many will share, I just hope that everyone gives him a fair chance instead of deciding that regardless of how good his music is there is no way he's nearly as good as Bach or even Vivaldi and Handel.

OK guys, just agree to disagree.  8)

Because I don't think prolonging this Rameau vs Bach discussion is very productive or informative for the readers of this thread, even though it has touched briefly on Rameau's qualities as a composer.

Q

Offline Chronochromie

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2016, 03:31:02 PM »
OK guys, just agree to disagree.  8)

Because I don't think prolonging this Rameau vs Bach discussion is very productive or informative for the readers of this thread, even though it has touched briefly on Rameau's qualities as a composer.

Q

I agree, and thought it was all over but he just wouldn't surrender!  ::)  I just hope my post with videos of Rameau's works makes someone to listen to his music and doesn't get lost in the thread.

Offline The new erato

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2016, 08:07:48 PM »
Minkowski DVD is fantastic, in all aspects: singing, acting, staging. One of best opera on DVDs I've ever watched.
Totally and utterly agree.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2017, 02:25:03 AM »
I enjoyed watching this a lot:


Pretty stunning production. Recommended!  :)
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Spineur

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2017, 02:33:04 AM »
I enjoyed watching this a lot:


Pretty stunning production. Recommended!  :)
I actually tried to buy it but for some reason it is not on amazon.fr or amazon.de. I actually found it in the secondary market, but it does not seem to be distributed so well.

To thread owner or moderators

The correct spelling is Jean-Philippe Rameau (only one l in Philippe).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 02:39:35 AM by Spineur »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Jean Phillippe Rameau
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2017, 02:41:44 AM »
I actually tried to buy it but for some reason it is not on amazon.fr or amazon.de. I actually found it in the secondary market, but it does not seem to be distributed so well.

Sorry to hear that. I was lucky and got a very good deal for it, £9.37 + shipping = £11.19 delivered at Amazon.co.uk marketplace (New).

I bought it 11 months ago and only now watched it.  ;D
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Ecclesiastical Secularism"



Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Offline TheGSMoeller

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Re: Jean-Philippe Rameau
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2018, 10:51:02 AM »
First review for the new outlet:

Congrats on the new gig, Jens. I've always enjoyed going to Classics Today as a freebie, now perhaps I'll pay for the extras with you there.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Jean-Philippe Rameau
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2018, 02:02:48 PM »
Congrats on the new gig, Jens. I've always enjoyed going to Classics Today as a freebie, now perhaps I'll pay for the extras with you there.

Thanks and thanks for the compliment! That would be fab., of course... my standing would go through the roof, no doubt, if people signed up for the new kid on the block.  ;)

Offline milk

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Re: Jean-Philippe Rameau
« Reply #96 on: September 07, 2019, 10:44:50 PM »

I can't remember what put me on to Rowland, but I got stuck on him and now no other performance of these pieces seems as good. I'm not sure I've seen much praise for Rowland generally. In Rameau, he really at home - stately, lively, energetic, dramatic - although the instrument is not the most attractive.

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: Jean-Philippe Rameau
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2020, 02:23:04 AM »
Cross-posted from the French Music Exploration thread:

I moved on to Jean-Philippe Rameau earlier this afternoon.

I do not have a lot in my collection but he actually is the French composer I return to the most for the following :

Les Indes Galantes (Orchestral - Bruggen)
Les Indes Galantes (Harpsichord - Rousset)
Pieces de Clavecin (Bielder, Ross , Meyer)

The Suite in E minor particularly is a strong favorite of mine as it includes Rappel des Oiseaux et Gigue en Rondeau. I have always been satisfied with only Indes Galantes in instrumental versions. It should be a short foray as I tried a few times the operas themselves (audio, YT video) but to no avail. It just doesn't work for me once the singing is there.

Earlier today, I listened to the Overtures by Rousset. That was very good, really enjoyed that.



Checking out Rameau's works on wikipedia, I notice he did some motets. I'll give that a go later today on tomorrow.



I enjoy a lot of his music also, but with Franck and Saint-Saens and Fauré out there, he doesn't get as many plays.

Swerved Varése, but up for Rameau following Nielsen which should make for an interesting twosome this evening. ;D

Must admit, I don't often visit (revisit?) Rameau.  Like you, I do enjoy (and own) that overtures disc with Rousset.  I should try again his operas (I own a few of them).

PD

Suites Des Indes Galantes



Most enjoyable. A recording from 1961 that wears it's years well.

Rousset is a fine interpreter of Rameau, I think, and he plays the harpsichord works very well if one is interested in that particular field of endeavour.

I only have one CD of his but yes, it is a very good one :



I took some of my Rameau in a thoroughly non-traditional form.



And I was rather surprised at how well the programming worked. The choices of Debussy pieces are very, very smart to fit with the Rameau ones. And yes, this won't work if you don't want your harpsichord music played on piano. But for what it is, it impressed me a lot more than I had expected.

Noted Madiel, thank you, and added in my queue. Maybe the mixing of tracks with Rameau will help me hear Debussy differently when I get to him.

Olivier

Offline Rosalba

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Re: Jean-Philippe Rameau
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2021, 12:04:56 PM »
Rameau & Bach - more specifically their views on music theory - are compared here.

I've read the thread briefly - my apologies if the link's been published already.

https://www.piano-composer-teacher-london.co.uk/post/rameau-and-the-western-musical-decline
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