Sir Arnold Bax

Started by tjguitar, April 15, 2007, 06:12:44 PM

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SymphonicAddict

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 08, 2019, 12:21:33 PM
In Memoriam - The CHAMBER work is exceptionally fine too and written for a very unusual ensemble of quartet cor anglais and harp

+1

Both In Memoriam are terrific.

SymphonicAddict

#981
Happy birthday, Arnold!!

Playing November Woods now. You can feel the nature's rawness and its magical atmosphere in this work. It's excellent.

vers la flamme

^In belated celebration of his birthday I will have to explore his music. I'm not big on English composers of this era, but it appears that he is one of the good ones. Is anyone familiar with the David Lloyd-Jones/Naxos recordings of Bax symphonies, etc...? I always see them at my favorite record store.

What is his best symphony, or, what Bax symphony would you recommend to a newcomer to his music?

vandermolen

Quote from: vers la flamme on November 10, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
^In belated celebration of his birthday I will have to explore his music. I'm not big on English composers of this era, but it appears that he is one of the good ones. Is anyone familiar with the David Lloyd-Jones/Naxos recordings of Bax symphonies, etc...? I always see them at my favorite record store.

What is his best symphony, or, what Bax symphony would you recommend to a newcomer to his music?

Just a personal view of course. I'd start with Symphony No.3, in many ways the most approachable and it has a beautiful concluding 'Epilogue' which will stay in your mind. Those Naxos recordings are, in my view, fine. Not necessarily top choice but very serviceable. No.5 is in some ways the most integrated but I like them all. Happy listening!  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vers la flamme on November 10, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
^In belated celebration of his birthday I will have to explore his music. I'm not big on English composers of this era, but it appears that he is one of the good ones. Is anyone familiar with the David Lloyd-Jones/Naxos recordings of Bax symphonies, etc...? I always see them at my favorite record store.

What is his best symphony, or, what Bax symphony would you recommend to a newcomer to his music?

If you are not a great fan of this genre I would proceed with caution. Perhaps the tone poems would be a safer bet. It has taken me years to fully appreciate the Bax symphonies and I don't think I'm fully there yet.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: vers la flamme on November 10, 2019, 09:59:50 AM
^In belated celebration of his birthday I will have to explore his music. I'm not big on English composers of this era, but it appears that he is one of the good ones. Is anyone familiar with the David Lloyd-Jones/Naxos recordings of Bax symphonies, etc...? I always see them at my favorite record store.

What is his best symphony, or, what Bax symphony would you recommend to a newcomer to his music?

I do think the Bax symphonies contain much of his finest/most typical writing.  That's not to say its an easy fix entering his musical and aesthetic world through them but ultimately they will give you the sense of whether he is a composer you will respond to or not.  The Lloyd-Jones cycle is an archetypal efficient read/record cycle played by a good orchestra with a competent conductor.  Lloyd-Jones avoids most of the obvious Baxian pitfalls by keeping the music moving, avoiding potential longeurs and making the most of the brilliant orchestration.  But they are NOT profound or even that insightful as interpretations.

Oddly - I have not been as moved or impressed by the Handley cycle as I wanted/hoped to be.  There's something just a bit detached that I can't quite pin down - but I find I have the same response every time I come back to it.  Odd because without doubt in his lifetime Handley was the greatest disciple and passionate promoter of Bax's work.  Perhaps he just wasn't well at the times of the sessions.....?

Which leaves Thomson's LPO cycle and the odds and ends on Lyrita.  The more I re-hear Thomson the more I think he has a different and valid approach - less forgiving, powerful.... darker.  I do wish he had recorded more in Ulster - his No.4 that he did there - coupled with my favourite ever Tintagel - remains my favourite for that Symphony.

As to which symphony(ies) to try first - tricky because they inhabit very different emotional landscapes.  You won't go far wrong with the Lyrita disc of Nos.2 & 5.  Two of my favourite works of the 7 in my favourite performances;  No.2 very bleak, unforgiving and craggy with No.5 more legendary and epicly human.... enjoy!


SymphonicAddict

Quote from: vandermolen on November 10, 2019, 10:07:00 AM
Just a personal view of course. I'd start with Symphony No.3, in many ways the most approachable and it has a beautiful concluding 'Epilogue' which will stay in your mind. Those Naxos recordings are, in my view, fine. Not necessarily top choice but very serviceable. No.5 is in some ways the most integrated but I like them all. Happy listening!  :)

Quote from: Irons on November 10, 2019, 11:54:20 AM
If you are not a great fan of this genre I would proceed with caution. Perhaps the tone poems would be a safer bet. It has taken me years to fully appreciate the Bax symphonies and I don't think I'm fully there yet.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 10, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
I do think the Bax symphonies contain much of his finest/most typical writing.  That's not to say its an easy fix entering his musical and aesthetic world through them but ultimately they will give you the sense of whether he is a composer you will respond to or not.  The Lloyd-Jones cycle is an archetypal efficient read/record cycle played by a good orchestra with a competent conductor.  Lloyd-Jones avoids most of the obvious Baxian pitfalls by keeping the music moving, avoiding potential longeurs and making the most of the brilliant orchestration.  But they are NOT profound or even that insightful as interpretations.

Oddly - I have not been as moved or impressed by the Handley cycle as I wanted/hoped to be.  There's something just a bit detached that I can't quite pin down - but I find I have the same response every time I come back to it.  Odd because without doubt in his lifetime Handley was the greatest disciple and passionate promoter of Bax's work.  Perhaps he just wasn't well at the times of the sessions.....?

Which leaves Thomson's LPO cycle and the odds and ends on Lyrita.  The more I re-hear Thomson the more I think he has a different and valid approach - less forgiving, powerful.... darker.  I do wish he had recorded more in Ulster - his No.4 that he did there - coupled with my favourite ever Tintagel - remains my favourite for that Symphony.

As to which symphony(ies) to try first - tricky because they inhabit very different emotional landscapes.  You won't go far wrong with the Lyrita disc of Nos.2 & 5.  Two of my favourite works of the 7 in my favourite performances;  No.2 very bleak, unforgiving and craggy with No.5 more legendary and epicly human.... enjoy!



Excellently well put!

vandermolen

#987
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 10, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
I do think the Bax symphonies contain much of his finest/most typical writing.  That's not to say its an easy fix entering his musical and aesthetic world through them but ultimately they will give you the sense of whether he is a composer you will respond to or not.  The Lloyd-Jones cycle is an archetypal efficient read/record cycle played by a good orchestra with a competent conductor.  Lloyd-Jones avoids most of the obvious Baxian pitfalls by keeping the music moving, avoiding potential longeurs and making the most of the brilliant orchestration.  But they are NOT profound or even that insightful as interpretations.

Oddly - I have not been as moved or impressed by the Handley cycle as I wanted/hoped to be.  There's something just a bit detached that I can't quite pin down - but I find I have the same response every time I come back to it.  Odd because without doubt in his lifetime Handley was the greatest disciple and passionate promoter of Bax's work.  Perhaps he just wasn't well at the times of the sessions.....?

Which leaves Thomson's LPO cycle and the odds and ends on Lyrita.  The more I re-hear Thomson the more I think he has a different and valid approach - less forgiving, powerful.... darker.  I do wish he had recorded more in Ulster - his No.4 that he did there - coupled with my favourite ever Tintagel - remains my favourite for that Symphony.

As to which symphony(ies) to try first - tricky because they inhabit very different emotional landscapes.  You won't go far wrong with the Lyrita disc of Nos.2 & 5.  Two of my favourite works of the 7 in my favourite performances;  No.2 very bleak, unforgiving and craggy with No.5 more legendary and epicly human.... enjoy!


I very much agree with RS here and that Lyrita CD with symphonies 2 and 5 would be a great staring point. I also wish that Thomson had stuck with the Ulster Orchestra for his symphony cycle, although I also prefer his recordings to those of Vernon Handley (I could say the same about his VW cycle as well).

As for the tone poems I've always thought very highly of this CD:
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vers la flamme

Thanks for the help everyone. That Bryden Thomson Tintagel disc looks really good I think. Moreover I appreciate the warnings. I am definitely not an English music fanatic like so many here are, but I find something fascinating in the music and it's a sound I would like to understand better. Perhaps I would be better off sticking to Elgar and Holst first. Even Vaughan Williams, who used to really interest me, has just not been doing it for me lately. I'll have to sample before making any big purchases. I probably will pick up one of the David Lloyd-Jones Naxos discs as they're only 2 or 3 bucks at a store near me.

Irons

#989
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 11, 2019, 02:14:12 AM
Thanks for the help everyone. That Bryden Thomson Tintagel disc looks really good I think. Moreover I appreciate the warnings. I am definitely not an English music fanatic like so many here are, but I find something fascinating in the music and it's a sound I would like to understand better. Perhaps I would be better off sticking to Elgar and Holst first. Even Vaughan Williams, who used to really interest me, has just not been doing it for me lately. I'll have to sample before making any big purchases. I probably will pick up one of the David Lloyd-Jones Naxos discs as they're only 2 or 3 bucks at a store near me.

Do let us know how you get on.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: vers la flamme on November 11, 2019, 02:14:12 AM
Thanks for the help everyone. That Bryden Thomson Tintagel disc looks really good I think. Moreover I appreciate the warnings. I am definitely not an English music fanatic like so many here are, but I find something fascinating in the music and it's a sound I would like to understand better. Perhaps I would be better off sticking to Elgar and Holst first. Even Vaughan Williams, who used to really interest me, has just not been doing it for me lately. I'll have to sample before making any big purchases. I probably will pick up one of the David Lloyd-Jones Naxos discs as they're only 2 or 3 bucks at a store near me.

Yes, let us know how you get on. I see that you live in the USA (my brother worked at a canning factory in Atlanta, Georgia in his student days). I just looked up that Bryden Thomson Tintagel disc on Amazon.com. You can pick up a copy for $2.48 plus postage. Type in 'Bax Tintagel Bryden Thomson' and it should come up.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

#991
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 11, 2019, 02:14:12 AM
Thanks for the help everyone. That Bryden Thomson Tintagel disc looks really good I think. Moreover I appreciate the warnings. I am definitely not an English music fanatic like so many here are, but I find something fascinating in the music and it's a sound I would like to understand better. Perhaps I would be better off sticking to Elgar and Holst first. Even Vaughan Williams, who used to really interest me, has just not been doing it for me lately. I'll have to sample before making any big purchases. I probably will pick up one of the David Lloyd-Jones Naxos discs as they're only 2 or 3 bucks at a store near me.

Bax is a composer I just haven't figured out and it's not like I've tried, gosh...I have tried! Vaughan Williams, on the other hand, is a composer that has held my interest for 10 years now and I don't ever foresee him not being a favorite of mine. Dare I say, he's the finest British composer there ever was and, trust me, I'm not trying to offer empty fan gushing, this guy continues to surprise the hell out of me. There were so many facets to RVW's style that it would be difficult for me to pick which one I liked the most. I personally believe that if you liked RVW early on that there's still a part of you that wants to continue to explore his music. Bax is just a difficult composer for me because there's just nothing for me to latch onto in his music or even to be intrigued by. It simply goes in one ear and out the other, but you're certainly welcome to try. Personally, I think you should stick to RVW, but you may want to try Britten at some point.

Daverz

#992
Sorry about your Bax problems, guys.   :'(

By the way, Lyrita has released an updated remastering of Boult's Bax recordings.  I don't have this yet, but I bought the recent Moeran remaster, and it was a big improvement over the old one.

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?cs=1&q=boult#quickview/album/37625

All new Lyrita remasters so far:

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?cs=1&q=lyrita

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
Bax is a composer I just haven't figured out and it's not like I've tried, gosh...I have tried! Vaughan Williams, on the other hand, is a composer that has held my interest for 10 years now and I don't ever foresee him not being a favorite of mine. Dare I say, he's the finest British composer there ever was and, trust me, I'm not trying to offer empty fan gushing, this guy continues to surprise the hell out of me. There were so many facets to RVW's style that it would be difficult for me to pick which one I liked the most. I personally believe that if you liked RVW early on that there's still a part of you that wants to continue to explore his music. Bax is just a difficult composer for me because there's just nothing for me to latch onto in his music or even to be intrigued by. It simply goes in one ear and out the other, but you're certainly welcome to try. Personally, I think you should stick to RVW, but you may want to try Britten at some point.

I agree with you about VW John. However, I discovered an LP of Bax's Third Symphony (LSO/Downes) in the university library in my student daysand never looked back after that. I do not enjoy all of Bax's output (unlike VW) but have a deep attachment to the symphonies, the Piano Quintet and many of the tone poems Oddly enough Britten is a composer I'm trying to explore more. I'm not an opera fan and up to now only enjoyed the War Requiem, Cantata Misericordium and the Sinfonia da Requiem but more recently I've enjoyed discovering the Violin and Piano Concerto (which I'm currently listening to).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Daverz on November 11, 2019, 08:56:39 PM
Sorry about your Bax problems, guys.   :'(

By the way, Lyrita has released an updated remastering of Boult's Bax recordings.  I don't have this yet, but I bought the recent Moeran remaster, and it was a big improvement over the old one.

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?cs=1&q=boult#quickview/album/37625

All new Lyrita remasters so far:

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?cs=1&q=lyrita

Interesting to read about these new remasterings.  Are they true remasterings from the original studio/anaolgue master tapes or a bit of computer twiddling done by a 3rd party?  Can't find anything on the Wyastone site to imply they are working from the true originals.  Is this a bit like HDTT who work from commercially released tapes etc.......?

Daverz

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2019, 11:48:25 PM
Interesting to read about these new remasterings.  Are they true remasterings from the original studio/anaolgue master tapes or a bit of computer twiddling done by a 3rd party?  Can't find anything on the Wyastone site to imply they are working from the true originals.  Is this a bit like HDTT who work from commercially released tapes etc.......?

They are from Lyrita, so I assume they are from the master tapes, but it's just an assumption.  From experience, I can only report on the improvements in the new Boult Moeraen remaster.  I must have listened to the old Moeran CD hundreds of times, since I use it for speaker testing (though it's not a technically demanding recording with respect to frequency range or dynamics).  If they've gotten the improvements by only massaging the old bits, more power to 'em.

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?cs=1&q=boult#quickview/album/37627


aukhawk

Interesting indeed.

By far my favourite work by Bax is his Symphony No.2 - it's the only one for me that stands alongside much of VW, Moeran's Sinfonietta, Walton's 1st Symphony, Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and Spring Symphony.   And my favourite recording is the Lyrita one as included on the CD reissue linked upthread. 
However - I've always felt that the CD transfer was lacking something, compared with the original vinyl.  So in my own collection I've replaced the CD rip of that recording with a needledrop.  So I will be very interested if that project ever includes the Myer Fredman recording of Symphony No.2 - which was demonstration-quality in its day.


vers la flamme

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
Bax is a composer I just haven't figured out and it's not like I've tried, gosh...I have tried! Vaughan Williams, on the other hand, is a composer that has held my interest for 10 years now and I don't ever foresee him not being a favorite of mine. Dare I say, he's the finest British composer there ever was and, trust me, I'm not trying to offer empty fan gushing, this guy continues to surprise the hell out of me. There were so many facets to RVW's style that it would be difficult for me to pick which one I liked the most. I personally believe that if you liked RVW early on that there's still a part of you that wants to continue to explore his music. Bax is just a difficult composer for me because there's just nothing for me to latch onto in his music or even to be intrigued by. It simply goes in one ear and out the other, but you're certainly welcome to try. Personally, I think you should stick to RVW, but you may want to try Britten at some point.
I'll have to see for myself; clearly, there are many here who feel the opposite about Bax's music. In all likelihood you may be right. Moreover, it could be that British music is just not for me at all. But I suspect there is something there and I am determined to understand it. As for RVW it could be a matter of finding the right recordings...? I loved the André Previn/LSO Pastoral symphony when I first heard it, so I got his complete cycle of the symphonies, but the other recordings have all left me cold.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Daverz on November 12, 2019, 12:24:43 AM
They are from Lyrita, so I assume they are from the master tapes, but it's just an assumption.  From experience, I can only report on the improvements in the new Boult Moeraen remaster.  I must have listened to the old Moeran CD hundreds of times, since I use it for speaker testing (though it's not a technically demanding recording with respect to frequency range or dynamics).  If they've gotten the improvements by only massaging the old bits, more power to 'em.

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?cs=1&q=boult#quickview/album/37627

I e-mailed Lyrita this morning and got a quick - and detailed - reply;

"I can confirm that Lyrita has invested in a small series of HD Digital releases. For each we have returned to the analogue masters, re-transferred and  and processed at the highest industry standards. Full list of current titles is attached.

These are currently being aggregated by Naxos Digital who are targetting the emerging DSPs who specialise in HD Digital releases. We expect that Presto will have these titles in the UK soon. We will analyse results in February then assess if further transfers can be justified. Note only titles that were recorded on analogue tape can be transferred at these higher bit rates. This is considered a soft launch trial right now but the first month of release showed a 60% increase for Lyrita Digital, encouraging!"

The full list of releases (be still my beating wallet.....) is:

High bitrate (96K/44bit) transfers from the Lyrita catalogue.

1   ARNOLD   SRCD201   English Dances Set 1 & 2 (Arnold)   20.00            Scottish Dances & Cornish Dances (Arnold)   23.13         SRCD257   Sinfonietta No. 1    9.53         SRCD318   Overture 'Beckus the Dandipratt'   7.52               60.58
2   FINZI   SRCD239   Soliloquies, Eclogue etc   79.26
3/4   ELGAR   SRCD221   Symphonies 1 & 2 (Boult) – as CD   99.53
5   BUTTERWORTH   SRCD245   English Idylls   68.46
6/7   ALWYN   SRCD2218   'Miss Julie' – as CD   117.56   
8   PARRY   SRCD220   Orchestral Works (Boult) – as CD   63.09   
9   MOERAN   SRCD247   Symphony & Sinfonietta (Boult) – as CD   78.55
10/11LLOYD   SRCD2258   Symphonies 4, 5 & 8 (Downes)    106.04   
12   HOLST   SRCD222   Orchestral Works (Boult) – as CD   61.48
13   LEIGH   SRCD289   Orchestral Works – as CD   67.50
14/15 TIPPETT   SRCD2217   'The Midsummer Marriage'           153.34
16   FINZI   SRCD236   Concertos – as CD   70.28   
17   BAX   SRCD231   Orchestral Works (Boult) – as CD   62.14
18   SCOTT   SRCD251   Concerto (Ogden/Herrmann) – as CD   79.44
19   COATES AND   SRCD246   Orchestral Pops (Boult) – as CD   63.08
20   IRELAND   SRCD240   Orchestral Works (Boult) – as CD   76.04
21   BERKELEY   SRCD249   Symphonies 1 & 2 – as CD   62.03
22   BLISS   SRCD225   Orchestral/Choral (Bliss) – as CD   79.13
23   RAWSTHORNE   SRCD255   Concerto/Orchestral – as CD   77.26
24   BRIDGE   SRCD243   Orchestral Works (Braithwaite) – as CD   71.38
25/26   ALWYN   SRCD229   Orchestral Works (Alwyn)            64.06



Daverz

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 02:20:35 AM
The full list of releases (be still my beating wallet.....) is:

High bitrate (96K/44bit) transfers from the Lyrita catalogue.

[snip]
   
17   BAX   SRCD231   Orchestral Works (Boult) – as CD   62.14

Thanks, RS.  The link I gave below is actually for Boult's Holst disc (also essential), so the news that they are going to release the Bax disc saves me from some embarassment.  I don't see it at Presto yet, though.