Sir Arnold Bax

[vandermolen]

I remember that broadcast of Winter Legends very well.  I don't have the disc but it must have 1978 or 79?  The Colin Scott-Sutherland book - the only real reference for Bax's music - made great play of its importance in his output.  So when the chance to hear it came up I was very interested.  Being at school at the time I had to rig up a simple timer for the radio at home (my mother pushing the record button on the rather basic music centre) and I ended up with a prized rather low-fi cassette - I think it just fitted on one side of a C-90!  To this day neither of the big piano concertante works by Bax - Winter Legends or Symphonic Variations do much for me.  A case of where Baxian "sprawl" overwhelms the music.  But I keep trying.......

1978. I prefer the Symphonic Variations to Winter Legends. I remember that I recorded Hilding Rosenberg's 2nd Symphony 'Grave' from a radio broadcast on to a cassette!

[kyjo]

Sadly I don't have that recording, I hope it is not a mono one if I get it.

On the other hand, this time I wanted to hear the 6th, which some claim is one of his best, and now I tend to agree with that. It has one of the most epic and marked beginnings I know by him, grabbing immediately the attention of the listener. I confirm the ability to evoke atmospheres is one of Bax's strongest attributes, I feel I'm taken to a cold and hostile scenery, not without some warmer moments that chiefly woodwinds offer. The contrast between the wild outbursts and the restful fairy-like moments is another appeal I find here. Moreover, the inner cohesion is linked to the exuberant orchestration that in turn helps to the atmosphere, it's just getting carried away by the fantastic sonorities, hence melodies are not always necessary to enjoy this work or most of the works by this composer. And I think it's one of your least favorite symphonies of him, Jeffrey, isn't it? I wonder why! 

I also listened to the 6th recently (Thomson recording, which is great) and very much agree with you. Along with the 1st and 5th, it's among Bax's most powerful and cohesive symphonies. The opening is indeed very gripping and the valedictory ending is quite moving, and there's much great material in between (particularly the 'will-o-the-wisp' scherzo section in the finale). It seems that preference of the Bax symphonies is one of the few things we and Jeffrey disagree on!

[kyjo]

I remember that broadcast of Winter Legends very well.  I don't have the disc but it must have 1978 or 79?  The Colin Scott-Sutherland book - the only real reference for Bax's music - made great play of its importance in his output.  So when the chance to hear it came up I was very interested.  Being at school at the time I had to rig up a simple timer for the radio at home (my mother pushing the record button on the rather basic music centre) and I ended up with a prized rather low-fi cassette - I think it just fitted on one side of a C-90!  To this day neither of the big piano concertante works by Bax - Winter Legends or Symphonic Variations do much for me.  A case of where Baxian "sprawl" overwhelms the music.  But I keep trying.......

I agree with you about the prolixity of Winter Legends and Symphonic Variations, though there are some colorful passages in the former especially. I prefer the later Concertante for Piano Left Hand to both works - it boasts an especially lovely slow movement with one of Bax's signature "Celtic" tunes. Rather oddly this movement often puts me in mind of the slow sections of the Hanson Piano Concerto!

[SymphonicAddict]

Hi Cesar. Symphony 2 is mono and Winter Legends is stereo.
Actually I have the highest opinion of all the Bax symphonies, although it's true that I do not consider No.6 the greatest. I think part of the problem is that I don't consider Norman Del Mar's Lyrita recording (the only one available for decades) on the same level as the other Lyrita recordings by Raymond Leppard and Myer Fredman. Actually I think that the Naxos recording by Lloyd-Jones or the Bryden Thomson on Chandos is preferable. I will listen again to Symphony 6 and it is a great symphony I agree. It may be that the Lyrita recording of Symphony 6 always struck me as rather 'boxed in'.

On a separate note I came across this rather touching obituary of Myer Fredman, the conductor of the legendary first recordings of Bax's 1st and 2nd symphonies (not to mention Havergal Brian's 6th and 16th also on Lyrita):
https://kevinpurcell.com.au/Content/2014/07/myer-fredman-1932-2014-the-passing-of-a-very-great-conductor-and-musician/

Oh, too bad for my interests. Having stereo recordings I lean prefering them over mono 

As for the 6th, often first listens leave a strong impression, so I kind of understand your approach to that work in those terms.

[SymphonicAddict]

I also listened to the 6th recently (Thomson recording, which is great) and very much agree with you. Along with the 1st and 5th, it's among Bax's most powerful and cohesive symphonies. The opening is indeed very gripping and the valedictory ending is quite moving, and there's much great material in between (particularly the 'will-o-the-wisp' scherzo section in the finale). It seems that preference of the Bax symphonies is one of the few things we and Jeffrey disagree on!

Very good! Those are my favorites too, and the 4th is not far behind.

[vandermolen]

An underrated performance of Symphony 6 IMO. I much prefer it to the Norman Del Mar recording on Lyrita which always sounds rather constipated (sorry) and boxed-in to me.

[Roasted Swan]

An underrated performance of Symphony 6 IMO. I much prefer it to the Norman Del Mar recording on Lyrita which always sounds rather constipated (sorry) and boxed-in to me.

I agree that the Lyrita recording is one of their few technical duds but I find this Bostock version poor in the extreme.  The Munich Orchestra are 2nd rank at best.  Add a lack of rehearsal and Bostock's middle of the road, nothing insightful, dull but safe approach and its a non-starter for me.  Topped off by a depressingly slack Tintagel

[vandermolen]

I agree that the Lyrita recording is one of their few technical duds but I find this Bostock version poor in the extreme.  The Munich Orchestra are 2nd rank at best.  Add a lack of rehearsal and Bostock's middle of the road, nothing insightful, dull but safe approach and its a non-starter for me.  Topped off by a depressingly slack Tintagel

I think that this is the general consensus but I find the rather under-stated performance of interest and holding my attention although I tend to agree with you regarding Tintagel.

[Roasted Swan]

I think that this is the general consensus but I find the rather under-stated performance of interest and holding my attention although I tend to agree with you regarding Tintagel.

Ingrate that I am...!  Not so long ago who would have thought we could discuss the relative merits of 5 different recorded versions of a Bax Symphony - including 3 complete cycles

[vandermolen]

Ingrate that I am...!  Not so long ago who would have thought we could discuss the relative merits of 5 different recorded versions of a Bax Symphony - including 3 complete cycles

Yes, that's true!

[Irons]

How does the David Lloyd-Jones cycle on Naxos measure up?

[vandermolen]

How does the David Lloyd-Jones cycle on Naxos measure up?

I like No.6 very much - possibly my favourite version. I think that they are all good without necessarily being anything special. I like the coupling of Nympholept and Symphony 4 and also like the recordings of 3 and 7.

[Roasted Swan]

How does the David Lloyd-Jones cycle on Naxos measure up?

My memory was exactly the same as Vandermolen's - good without being anything "market-leading".  But to be fair - I listened to that No.7 the other day in isolation (in the sense that I haven't listened to that work in any performance for some time) and actually enjoyed it more than I remembered.......

[Brian]

I realized this morning that I have no memory of any of the Bax symphonies or which is which. So I decided to re-listen to them all and write notes for my own future reference. But just in case anybody else finds the notes interesting, will post them here.

Symphony No. 1 in E flat. Starting with a blast of percussion and brass, the first movement initially lives up to its "feroce" marking (one tune sounds a little like the Star Wars imperial march), before a long secondary episode that's slower and more pastoral. Almost half the movement is gone before the development starts. There's a goofy little circus interlude around 8:30 (Fredman performance) but mostly it's a return to the agitated mood, with one tranquil episode near the end. The slow movement is at least as foreboding - droning strings, snarling muted trombones. It's generally pretty successful. I like the finale's fairly convincing twists and turns between major and minor keys, too. Also, I thought Bax symphonies were generally longer than this. There is some fat that could have been trimmed, a bit of empty-calorie trombone blasting, and not too much that is Truly Memorable, but it's all quite nice and generally worth revisiting.

Symphony No. 2 in E minor and C major (?!). Yet another sinister beginning, but this time driven by lower strings and woodwinds. Bax sure does love his muted brass. The first movement has its dial set firmly to menace, mystery, and vague foreboding; the slow movement is a little like that of Symphony No. 1, too, but with a folksy central episode that only feels appropriate because it's rather solemnly scored and played (Fredman again). After a while, it too turns toward angst. I'm starting to wonder if all of Bax's symphonies run together in my mind because they're stuck firmly in the same mood of snarly menace and turbulence. The organ is a welcome surprise, a pretty natural way of turning up the heat.

Symphony No. 5. Skipping ahead because this is the next thing on the Lyrita CD (Leppard performance). And I'm afraid the Fifth mostly seems to be offering more of the same - probably Bax's most lyrical second subject yet, bookended by more of the familiar feeling of vague threat/menace. Lots more muted brass. This seems to be the symphony where he gives most attention to colorful string writing. At 13:30 in the first movement, there's a surprisingly jaunty outburst that takes us over to the world of Elgar's marches. Then follows one of the calm oasis moments which Bax seems to like to put in his first movement codas. I completely forgot to take notes on the slow movement. The finale, while still basically foreboding/intimidating, is more dancelike than any Bax so far, kinda tarantell-ish and snappy. Reminds me of George Lloyd. It bogs down a little towards the end before reaching a determined upbeat ending on a major chord - maybe the first happy ending so far??

Okay, I'm burned out for now....more later.

[vandermolen]

My memory was exactly the same as Vandermolen's - good without being anything "market-leading".  But to be fair - I listened to that No.7 the other day in isolation (in the sense that I haven't listened to that work in any performance for some time) and actually enjoyed it more than I remembered.......

That was also my recent experience with Symphony 7.

[vandermolen]

I realized this morning that I have no memory of any of the Bax symphonies or which is which. So I decided to re-listen to them all and write notes for my own future reference. But just in case anybody else finds the notes interesting, will post them here.

Symphony No. 1 in E flat. Starting with a blast of percussion and brass, the first movement initially lives up to its "feroce" marking (one tune sounds a little like the Star Wars imperial march), before a long secondary episode that's slower and more pastoral. Almost half the movement is gone before the development starts. There's a goofy little circus interlude around 8:30 (Fredman performance) but mostly it's a return to the agitated mood, with one tranquil episode near the end. The slow movement is at least as foreboding - droning strings, snarling muted trombones. It's generally pretty successful. I like the finale's fairly convincing twists and turns between major and minor keys, too. Also, I thought Bax symphonies were generally longer than this. There is some fat that could have been trimmed, a bit of empty-calorie trombone blasting, and not too much that is Truly Memorable, but it's all quite nice and generally worth revisiting.

Symphony No. 2 in E minor and C major (?!). Yet another sinister beginning, but this time driven by lower strings and woodwinds. Bax sure does love his muted brass. The first movement has its dial set firmly to menace, mystery, and vague foreboding; the slow movement is a little like that of Symphony No. 1, too, but with a folksy central episode that only feels appropriate because it's rather solemnly scored and played (Fredman again). After a while, it too turns toward angst. I'm starting to wonder if all of Bax's symphonies run together in my mind because they're stuck firmly in the same mood of snarly menace and turbulence. The organ is a welcome surprise, a pretty natural way of turning up the heat.

Symphony No. 5. Skipping ahead because this is the next thing on the Lyrita CD (Leppard performance). And I'm afraid the Fifth mostly seems to be offering more of the same - probably Bax's most lyrical second subject yet, bookended by more of the familiar feeling of vague threat/menace. Lots more muted brass. This seems to be the symphony where he gives most attention to colorful string writing. At 13:30 in the first movement, there's a surprisingly jaunty outburst that takes us over to the world of Elgar's marches. Then follows one of the calm oasis moments which Bax seems to like to put in his first movement codas. I completely forgot to take notes on the slow movement. The finale, while still basically foreboding/intimidating, is more dancelike than any Bax so far, kinda tarantell-ish and snappy. Reminds me of George Lloyd. It bogs down a little towards the end before reaching a determined upbeat ending on a major chord - maybe the first happy ending so far??

Okay, I'm burned out for now....more later.

Interesting reviews and thanks for posting. I have a higher opinion of the sibelian 5th Symphony and find it to be the most integrated of the seven. On the Star Wars theme I wonder if anyone else has noticed the similarity between the March from Prokofiev's 'The Love of Three Oranges' and the 'Parade of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi'.

[kyjo]

On the Star Wars theme I wonder if anyone else has noticed the similarity between the March from Prokofiev's 'The Love of Three Oranges' and the 'Parade of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi'.

Yes, of course! As Brian points out, there are numerous "Star Wars moments" in Bax's output, not least the openings of the Piano Quintet (the Force theme!) and November Woods (some of the quieter, more atmospheric moments in the soundtrack). I wonder if John Williams knew Bax's music? I think it's very possible that he did.

[relm1]

Yes, of course! As Brian points out, there are numerous "Star Wars moments" in Bax's output, not least the openings of the Piano Quintet (the Force theme!) and November Woods (some of the quieter, more atmospheric moments in the soundtrack). I wonder if John Williams knew Bax's music? I think it's very possible that he did.

John Williams is an anglophile (as was his predecessor, Bernard Herrmann) and very much influenced by RVW.  I'm not sure if he was inspired by Bax or rather both of them were inspired by the Ravelian/English style...sort of a mixture of impressionism and pastoralism giving it an oriental exotic mythical quality, like old legends. 

[vandermolen]

OT
I think that in the Avatar film James Horner uses a theme very similar to one in Prokofiev's 'War and Peace' opera, representing the Russian commander Kutuzov.

[relm1]

OT
I think that in the Avatar film James Horner uses a theme very similar to one in Prokofiev's 'War and Peace' opera, representing the Russian commander Kutuzov.

If you can give more specifics, I would definitely like to understand your reference better.  There is certainly Horner's frequently heard "danger motif" which can be heard in Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky which itself can be he heard in the opening bar of Rachmaninoff's Symphony No. 1.