Sir Arnold Bax

[vandermolen]

Thank you very much for that helpful and interesting information. I very much appreciate it.
Yes, there does seem to be an empathy between Thomson and the Ulster Orchestra which is a fine ensemble in my opinion.

I agree. It's a pity that Thomson's entire symphony cycle was not with the Ulster Orchestra (only No.4 I think).

[kyjo]

Just wanted to put in another plug for Bax's ineffably beautiful tone poem In memoriam (1916), which I feel still doesn't get enough love even from my fellow Baxians. (It's not to be confused with his - also very beautiful - chamber work of the same name). As much as I love his 1st, 3rd, and 6th Symphonies, Tintagel, November Woods, Piano Quintet, etc. it remains my single favorite work by him. The main theme that appears about a minute in is one of the most noble, expansive, yearning, and nostalgic melodies known to me and it makes me tear up every time I hear it. It can be found on the below Chandos CD in an excellent performance by the BBC Philharmonic under Vernon Handley - there's also a recording by the Hallé under Sir Mark Elder on the orchestra's own label. Please do hear this beautiful work if you haven't already!



https://youtu.be/zznTaL61lBo

[aligreto]

Just wanted to put in another plug for Bax's ineffably beautiful tone poem In memoriam (1916), which I feel still doesn't get enough love even from my fellow Baxians. (It's not to be confused with his - also very beautiful - chamber work of the same name). As much as I love his 1st, 3rd, and 6th Symphonies, Tintagel, November Woods, Piano Quintet, etc. it remains my single favorite work by him. The main theme that appears about a minute in is one of the most noble, expansive, yearning, and nostalgic melodies known to me and it makes me tear up every time I hear it. It can be found on the below Chandos CD in an excellent performance by the BBC Philharmonic under Vernon Handley - there's also a recording by the Hallé under Sir Mark Elder on the orchestra's own label. Please do hear this beautiful work if you haven't already!



https://youtu.be/zznTaL61lBo

You certainly put a strong case for the work, Kyle.
I will give it a listen later. Thank you for the link.

[vandermolen]

You certainly put a strong case for the work, Kyle.
I will give it a listen later. Thank you for the link.

+1

[relm1]

Turned on my car radio on my way back from the gym this evening ( 0:) 54 lengths of the swimming pool at a rather slow pace). Anyway, continuing this watery theme I was delighted to catch most of Bax's 'Tintagel' live from the Proms. It sounded like a very good performance (the ubiquitous John Wilson with the Sinfonia of London - maybe they will do a Bax CD). After the performance the Radio 3 presenter commented that after Bax's death in 1953 'Tintagel' was the only one of his works still performed. Things improved (a bit) at the time of the Centenary of Bax's birth in 1983, thanks to recordings made by Vernon Handley, Bryden Thomson and David Lloyd-Jones of the symphonies and tone poems (at around that time I remember attending a performance of Bax's 5th symphony in a largely empty Albert Hall). Still, good to hear Tintagel this evening.

So, I finally figured out how to hear the radio broadcast on the BBC website and loved this concert!  I thought the Tintagel was a fantastic performance.  Hitting all the right notes between vivid, evocative, and dramatic.  Also thought very highly of Thomas Tallis.  It would be great if they did a Bax cd.  One thing I'm scratching my head about, does London need another orchestra?  They said on the broadcast that Sinfonia of London is only four years old and as I understand it, it isn't a concert orchestra but a radio (pickup) orchestra.   I like the recordings and quality of Wilson's chandos releases but do notice the performances lack some discipline but don't find that terrible as I tend to prefer performances that sizzle and are on the edge of falling apart to those that are too safe.  I tend to prefer 1960's and 70's Bernstein, Davis, Karajan, Solti, Previn to same conductors a generation later where the interpretations where more precise but less on edge.  This is generally true for me - Stokowski from 1930's-50's is superior to 60's and 70's.  Similarly, I tend to prefer Markovitch, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Mravinsky, etc. to Gergiev, Temirkanov, or Petrenko.   All are fine, just feel that an edge is missing.  The interpretations just trend towards safe it seems. 

So there must be a small sweet spot.  I guess the ideal is you keep the reckless abandonment of youth in your passion but the measured wisdom of maturity in your control. 

[vandermolen]

So, I finally figured out how to hear the radio broadcast on the BBC website and loved this concert!  I thought the Tintagel was a fantastic performance.  Hitting all the right notes between vivid, evocative, and dramatic.  Also thought very highly of Thomas Tallis.  It would be great if they did a Bax cd.  One thing I'm scratching my head about, does London need another orchestra?  They said on the broadcast that Sinfonia of London is only four years old and as I understand it, it isn't a concert orchestra but a radio (pickup) orchestra.   I like the recordings and quality of Wilson's chandos releases but do notice the performances lack some discipline but don't find that terrible as I tend to prefer performances that sizzle and are on the edge of falling apart to those that are too safe.  I tend to prefer 1960's and 70's Bernstein, Davis, Karajan, Solti, Previn to same conductors a generation later where the interpretations where more precise but less on edge.  This is generally true for me - Stokowski from 1930's-50's is superior to 60's and 70's.  Similarly, I tend to prefer Markovitch, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Mravinsky, etc. to Gergiev, Temirkanov, or Petrenko.   All are fine, just feel that an edge is missing.  The interpretations just trend towards safe it seems. 


So there must be a small sweet spot.  I guess the ideal is you keep the reckless abandonment of youth in your passion but the measured wisdom of maturity in your control.

Interesting comments. I especially liked you point about preferring performances which are 'on the edge of falling apart' to more slick/polished ones. I can relate to that. I like those old Melodiya performances by the likes of Kondrashin and Mravinsky to the more slick and polished Gergiev/Petrenko ones for example. They may be played beautifully but there is something lacking. A very good example of the 'about to fall apart' recording is Hamilton Harty's premiere recording of Walton's 1st Symphony, recorded in a freezing cold warehouse in London. The Symphony had only recently been premiered - it is an absolutely riveting performance. Also worth exploring (back on topic) is Goossens's recording of Bax's 2nd Symphony (and another fine 'Tintagel'). Glad you enjoyed the Prom.

[vandermolen]

Just wanted to put in another plug for Bax's ineffably beautiful tone poem In memoriam (1916), which I feel still doesn't get enough love even from my fellow Baxians. (It's not to be confused with his - also very beautiful - chamber work of the same name). As much as I love his 1st, 3rd, and 6th Symphonies, Tintagel, November Woods, Piano Quintet, etc. it remains my single favorite work by him. The main theme that appears about a minute in is one of the most noble, expansive, yearning, and nostalgic melodies known to me and it makes me tear up every time I hear it. It can be found on the below Chandos CD in an excellent performance by the BBC Philharmonic under Vernon Handley - there's also a recording by the Hallé under Sir Mark Elder on the orchestra's own label. Please do hear this beautiful work if you haven't already!



https://youtu.be/zznTaL61lBo

Just playing this work now Kyle. It is indeed very fine and thank you for alerting us to its merits. The theme that you like also appears in Bax's later film score for David Lean's 'Oliver Twist':

[vandermolen]

'Tapiola' features on the CD accompanying the new BBC Music Magazine.

[aligreto]

I have just finished listening to Vol. 5 of the Thompson series on Chandos:






A Festival Overture: It is an interesting and contrasting work to listen to. It essentially does what it says. It is filled with the atmosphere of a festive occasion. It can be boisterous and exuberant and a bit quirky and whimsical in places. However, like most Bax works, it has its contrasting dark and contemplative passages. However, this is compensated for by the surrounding joy and sunshine.


Christmas Eve: I do not know its background but this is a wonderful piece of music. It may well be charged with emotional effusiveness but, consider the time of year that we are concerned with here. I find the tone of the music to be rather contemplative rather than celebratory but it certainly eventually encompasses the celebratory element, particularly towards its conclusion. This is a very fine work and very worthy of a hearing.


Nympholept: This is yet another wonderfully atmospheric work from Bax. It is quietly intense in the opening passages where the orchestration contributes substantially to the atmosphere. As the work progresses the intensity levels augment incrementally and the sense of both intensity and atmosphere are developed and portrayed. The music becomes more expansive towards its conclusion and then ultimately concludes in a somewhat subdued tone. It is a fine work.


Dance of Wild Irravel: This is a short but a suitably animated and atmospheric work. Bax never fails in the atmosphere department.


Paean: This is quite a short work and, to be honest, I do not quite know what to make of it on this, my first listen. It seems quite a clichéd celebratory piece of writing for Bax. Even so, the orchestration is wonderful, as ever. However, I find the work to be uneven and of mixed quality. I think that it lacks cohesion.
By way of elucidation I am including this quote from member pjme who offered the following insight and background into the music:

"Paean" is one of those compositions when a composer is given the opportunity to use all the forces available "for a special" occasion.
Bax's original version of Paean for piano was composed in 1920.
When Bax was commissioned to provide an orchestral work for the Sir Henry Wood Jubilee of 1938, he decided to expand his Paean for very large forces, including organ.
A noisy and fortunately short "song of praise or triumph."
It's a fun hoot!

I still do not like the work but I am grateful for the contribution to my education and it should be credited and included here.


Overture to a Picaresque Comedy: This is an interesting work. It is multi-faceted in terms of its musical content and that variety is interesting in itself. Once again, the orchestration is of the highest order.


Cortège: This is a short but atmospheric work in a festive, upbeat and celebratory vein.

[vers la flamme]

Anyone listening to Bax lately?

This is far and away my favorite Bax CD:



Everything about it is stunning: the 4th symphony is my favorite of his (though I haven't heard them all), and it's given a very committed, concise, and tight performance; the recording of Tintagel is the best of the few I've heard. Even the cover is evocative and fits perfectly with the music. I think I've heard that the rest of Thomson's Bax cycle, with the LPO instead of the Ulster, is not nearly as good—what do y'all say?

Other than that, I also do like the David Lloyd-Jones recordings with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra on Naxos. I guess I'm trying to figure out which cycle I should complete, Thomson, or DLJ.

There's something very special about Bax's music. I'll admit that I don't always walk away from one of his symphonies with a strong memory of exactly what I just heard, but his music belongs to its own very unique sound world, and seems very spatial, like flying, birds eye view, over breathtaking landscapes at a slow pace. One of the more interesting British composers for me, though I definitely have to be in the mood, or nothing about it is going to make sense or appeal to me.

[Roasted Swan]

Anyone listening to Bax lately?

This is far and away my favorite Bax CD:



Everything about it is stunning: the 4th symphony is my favorite of his (though I haven't heard them all), and it's given a very committed, concise, and tight performance; the recording of Tintagel is the best of the few I've heard. Even the cover is evocative and fits perfectly with the music. I think I've heard that the rest of Thomson's Bax cycle, with the LPO instead of the Ulster, is not nearly as good—what do y'all say?

Other than that, I also do like the David Lloyd-Jones recordings with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra on Naxos. I guess I'm trying to figure out which cycle I should complete, Thomson, or DLJ.

There's something very special about Bax's music. I'll admit that I don't always walk away from one of his symphonies with a strong memory of exactly what I just heard, but his music belongs to its own very unique sound world, and seems very spatial, like flying, birds eye view, over breathtaking landscapes at a slow pace. One of the more interesting British composers for me, though I definitely have to be in the mood, or nothing about it is going to make sense or appeal to me.

A really insightful and evocative summary of that recording.  Without doubt Thomson's No.4 in Ulster was a highlight if not THE highlight of his survey of the Bax symphonies.  The version of Tintagel remains my favourite for a number of reasons.  As a slight aside - the 2 volumes of the other tone poems that Thomson did in Ulster are also some of the finest.  I've often said on this forum that the Chandos recordings using the Ulster Hall in Belfast in the 80's & 90's are still some of their finest technical achievements.  Like their contemporaneous sessions in Sctoland with Jarvi and the SNO - just stunning.

For whatever reason the LPO sessions with Thomson are good but not AS good - a lot of the time I find the relatively early digital recordings in All Saints Tooting lacking the sophistication of those Ultster sessions (but then the Chandos/Philharmonia/Respighi sessions in the same venue still impress - go figure!)  Chandos has remastered all of their early orchestral Bax discs to good effect but NOT the symphonies.  I guess because they had the newer Handley cycle they thought it would be a waste of money with low sales.  My feeling about the Lloyd-Jones cycle is that - as with most of his Naxos/British music discs - they suffer from the lack of rehearsal/session time that could have made them really very good indeed.  Its a testament to the players and Lloyd-Jones that they are as good as they are but the trouble is Bax remains unfamiliar repertoire for all orchestras and is technically hard and musically elusive.  Also for me the Naxos engineering is variable.  The symphonies were recorded/released in order and my memory is that the internal balances change.  Bax writes so brilliantly for the horns and brass (the Thomson/Ulster No.4 is a PERFECT example of how to record Bax!) and they are too recessed for my taste on some of the Naxos discs.  If I had to choose a cycle I would still stick with Lyrita for 1,2,5 & 7 then Thomson for 4, Lloyd Jones for 3 and Handley for 6.

[vandermolen]

I have just finished listening to Vol. 5 of the Thompson series on Chandos:






A Festival Overture: It is an interesting and contrasting work to listen to. It essentially does what it says. It is filled with the atmosphere of a festive occasion. It can be boisterous and exuberant and a bit quirky and whimsical in places. However, like most Bax works, it has its contrasting dark and contemplative passages. However, this is compensated for by the surrounding joy and sunshine.


Christmas Eve: I do not know its background but this is a wonderful piece of music. It may well be charged with emotional effusiveness but, consider the time of year that we are concerned with here. I find the tone of the music to be rather contemplative rather than celebratory but it certainly eventually encompasses the celebratory element, particularly towards its conclusion. This is a very fine work and very worthy of a hearing.


Nympholept: This is yet another wonderfully atmospheric work from Bax. It is quietly intense in the opening passages where the orchestration contributes substantially to the atmosphere. As the work progresses the intensity levels augment incrementally and the sense of both intensity and atmosphere are developed and portrayed. The music becomes more expansive towards its conclusion and then ultimately concludes in a somewhat subdued tone. It is a fine work.


Dance of Wild Irravel: This is a short but a suitably animated and atmospheric work. Bax never fails in the atmosphere department.


Paean: This is quite a short work and, to be honest, I do not quite know what to make of it on this, my first listen. It seems quite a clichéd celebratory piece of writing for Bax. Even so, the orchestration is wonderful, as ever. However, I find the work to be uneven and of mixed quality. I think that it lacks cohesion.
By way of elucidation I am including this quote from member pjme who offered the following insight and background into the music:

I still do not like the work but I am grateful for the contribution to my education and it should be credited and included here.


Overture to a Picaresque Comedy: This is an interesting work. It is multi-faceted in terms of its musical content and that variety is interesting in itself. Once again, the orchestration is of the highest order.


Cortège: This is a short but atmospheric work in a festive, upbeat and celebratory vein.

Nice review Fergus - that is one of my very favourite Bax discs (especially for Christmas Eve, Nympholept, Paen and the Festival Overture).

[vandermolen]

Anyone listening to Bax lately?

This is far and away my favorite Bax CD:



Everything about it is stunning: the 4th symphony is my favorite of his (though I haven't heard them all), and it's given a very committed, concise, and tight performance; the recording of Tintagel is the best of the few I've heard. Even the cover is evocative and fits perfectly with the music. I think I've heard that the rest of Thomson's Bax cycle, with the LPO instead of the Ulster, is not nearly as good—what do y'all say?

Other than that, I also do like the David Lloyd-Jones recordings with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra on Naxos. I guess I'm trying to figure out which cycle I should complete, Thomson, or DLJ.

There's something very special about Bax's music. I'll admit that I don't always walk away from one of his symphonies with a strong memory of exactly what I just heard, but his music belongs to its own very unique sound world, and seems very spatial, like flying, birds eye view, over breathtaking landscapes at a slow pace. One of the more interesting British composers for me, though I definitely have to be in the mood, or nothing about it is going to make sense or appeal to me.

That's one of the great Bax discs (I originally owned the LP). Yes, it's a pity that the rest of the cycle was not with the Ulster Orchestra.

[vandermolen]

A really insightful and evocative summary of that recording.  Without doubt Thomson's No.4 in Ulster was a highlight if not THE highlight of his survey of the Bax symphonies.  The version of Tintagel remains my favourite for a number of reasons.  As a slight aside - the 2 volumes of the other tone poems that Thomson did in Ulster are also some of the finest.  I've often said on this forum that the Chandos recordings using the Ulster Hall in Belfast in the 80's & 90's are still some of their finest technical achievements.  Like their contemporaneous sessions in Sctoland with Jarvi and the SNO - just stunning.

For whatever reason the LPO sessions with Thomson are good but not AS good - a lot of the time I find the relatively early digital recordings in All Saints Tooting lacking the sophistication of those Ultster sessions (but then the Chandos/Philharmonia/Respighi sessions in the same venue still impress - go figure!)  Chandos has remastered all of their early orchestral Bax discs to good effect but NOT the symphonies.  I guess because they had the newer Handley cycle they thought it would be a waste of money with low sales.  My feeling about the Lloyd-Jones cycle is that - as with most of his Naxos/British music discs - they suffer from the lack of rehearsal/session time that could have made them really very good indeed.  Its a testament to the players and Lloyd-Jones that they are as good as they are but the trouble is Bax remains unfamiliar repertoire for all orchestras and is technically hard and musically elusive.  Also for me the Naxos engineering is variable.  The symphonies were recorded/released in order and my memory is that the internal balances change.  Bax writes so brilliantly for the horns and brass (the Thomson/Ulster No.4 is a PERFECT example of how to record Bax!) and they are too recessed for my taste on some of the Naxos discs.  If I had to choose a cycle I would still stick with Lyrita for 1,2,5 & 7 then Thomson for 4, Lloyd Jones for 3 and Handley for 6.

Most interesting. I agree about the Lyritas (other than Del Mar's boxed-in No.6, which you also exclude). I'd go for the Lyritas of 1,2,5 (much better than any other version) and 7, but I would go for Edward Downes in No.3 (RCA LP only) although I'm the only person in the world who thinks highly of that version. Thomson for No.4 and 6 (Lloyd-Jones is also very good). I'd also include Goossens's historic recording of No.2 (Dutton) as a bonus.

[Roasted Swan]

Most interesting. I agree about the Lyritas (other than Del Mar's boxed-in No.6, which you also exclude). I'd go for the Lyritas of 1,2,5 (much better than any other version) and 7, but I would go for Edward Downes in No.3 (RCA LP only) although I'm the only person in the world who thinks highly of that version. Thomson for No.4 and 6 (Lloyd-Jones is also very good). I'd also include Goossens's historic recording of No.2 (Dutton) as a bonus.

There is a pretty good LP transfer on YouTube of the Downes/LSO No.3 - my "problem" with that version was always a question of the actual transfer quality as my old "Gold Seal" LP was positively murky. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-bUEH4F5oc&t=7s

Very honourable mention for the Barbirolli No.3 on Dutton.  The only problem with Bax is that the orchestration is so complex and rich that it does kind of need modern recordings to reveal the detail - which is why those Lyrita recordings are so remarkable not just because of their artistic quality but the technical recordings too......

[vandermolen]

There is a pretty good LP transfer on YouTube of the Downes/LSO No.3 - my "problem" with that version was always a question of the actual transfer quality as my old "Gold Seal" LP was positively murky. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-bUEH4F5oc&t=7s

Very honourable mention for the Barbirolli No.3 on Dutton.  The only problem with Bax is that the orchestration is so complex and rich that it does kind of need modern recordings to reveal the detail - which is why those Lyrita recordings are so remarkable not just because of their artistic quality but the technical recordings too......

Thanks. The Red Seal was much better, I think. +1 for Barbirolli, especially in the Dutton release.

[Roasted Swan]

Today, without much prior thought I listened to Lloyd-Jones' CD of No.6 coupled with Into the Twilight and Summer Music.  I'd forgotten what a good version of all 3 works this is!  Well recorded too and the symphony has the emotional range and variety Bax needs.  At his best his music is really quite unique and I do love it....

[relm1]

Bax is such a wonderful sound world to inhabit.  I love the Bryden Thomson chandos cycle most.  Perhaps because it was how the music was introduced to me but I also like the Lyrita too.  I like how he evolves stylistically but always luxuriously imagined material.  Not a bad one amongst them. 

[vandermolen]

Today, without much prior thought I listened to Lloyd-Jones' CD of No.6 coupled with Into the Twilight and Summer Music.  I'd forgotten what a good version of all 3 works this is!  Well recorded too and the symphony has the emotional range and variety Bax needs.  At his best his music is really quite unique and I do love it....

I agree. Lloyd-Jones and Thomson are my favourite versions of Symphony No.6 - much better than Del Mar IMO (don't know the Handley very well). I'm hoping that a Boult or Barbirolli version will appear out of the archives at some point.

[Roasted Swan]

Bax is such a wonderful sound world to inhabit.  I love the Bryden Thomson chandos cycle most.  Perhaps because it was how the music was introduced to me but I also like the Lyrita too.  I like how he evolves stylistically but always luxuriously imagined material.  Not a bad one amongst them.

Agreed - on this Lloyd-Jones disc  "Summer Music" is just a joy.  Very untypical Bax - emotionally uncomplex and musically less convoluted than much he wrote but none the worse for that.  Interestingly in his catalogue the revised version (which is what we hear on disc) is adjacent to Symphony 5 but so different in its untroubled and idyllic (the original title of the 1921 work was "Idyll") world........