Sir Arnold Bax

Started by tjguitar, April 15, 2007, 06:12:44 PM

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vandermolen

Quote from: offbeat on December 30, 2009, 01:19:48 PM
yes sorry i forgot to enlarge the image - always liked this although does not seem to catch many bax admirers  ?

Thanks - I have this CD and will give it a listen soon.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

drogulus

Quote from: jowcol on March 31, 2009, 05:51:06 AM
if you are finding a learning curve with Bax, I would have to warn you that he is not a great melodist, and his works can ramble, but there is such a wonderful range of orchestral color and invention that you can surrender to that.  I didn't think the first symphony hit it's stride until the second movement.  I adore the second, and (to repeat myself) Winter Legends is great!

Bax is sort of the Anti-Rubbra in British Symphony.  Rubbra is more into structure and development, Bax is more of explosions of color.  I know that is a bit of a simplification-- but that's how I view Bax's symphonic work.

     I find Bax is slowly but steadily becoming a favorite composer. No, he isn't a melodist like Rachmaninov, but then Beethoven wasn't either. Bax is a master of coloristic effects, textures and harmonies, and he even has a good tune occasionally.
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Sean

Bax is the greatest British composer from any period.

However a word on the Handley symphonies set- there are some interesting insights and I particularly like his intoxicated Fourth (and his Spring Fire), but these recordings do Bax a grave disservice: as Handley himself explains on the interview CD, he looks at and tries to justify the music in traditional formal terms with symmetries and balance.

This is emphatically not what Bax was doing- he may often have began with a framework but goes on to use it only as a trellis to plaster his intuitively moving ideas (Shostakovich Fourth would be a similar example, Bax having closest relations with Shostakovich, and underlined by his often Russian themes): emphasizing sketchy sonata form and reducing the music's amazing inspiration in the moment per se to this is an enormous mistake- the music's achievement and fascination is in its self-justifying Dionysian logic not relation to Apollonian frames (Messiaen's juxtapositional style is another case of finding aesthetic logic across seemingly disparate material, independent of pre-given structure).

Sorry folks, you need to stick with the fabulous Thomson set.

Grazioso

Quote from: Sean on December 31, 2009, 03:00:17 AM
Sorry folks, you need to stick with the fabulous Thomson set.

I've yet to hear that one (though I have a bunch of his other Bax recordings), but of the two Bax symphony cycles I do have, I generally lean heavily towards Lloyd-Jones over Handley, in terms of both performance and sound.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

offbeat

Quote from: Sean on December 31, 2009, 03:00:17 AM
Bax is the greatest British composer from any period.

However a word on the Handley symphonies set- there are some interesting insights and I particularly like his intoxicated Fourth (and his Spring Fire), but these recordings do Bax a grave disservice: as Handley himself explains on the interview CD, he looks at and tries to justify the music in traditional formal terms with symmetries and balance.

This is emphatically not what Bax was doing- he may often have began with a framework but goes on to use it only as a trellis to plaster his intuitively moving ideas (Shostakovich Fourth would be a similar example, Bax having closest relations with Shostakovich, and underlined by his often Russian themes): emphasizing sketchy sonata form and reducing the music's amazing inspiration in the moment per se to this is an enormous mistake- the music's achievement and fascination is in its self-justifying Dionysian logic not relation to Apollonian frames (Messiaen's juxtapositional style is another case of finding aesthetic logic across seemingly disparate material, independent of pre-given structure).

Sorry folks, you need to stick with the fabulous Thomson set.
i think i understand what you mean - for me Bax was not interested so much in structure but more in feelings and poetry - i think maybe he got a bit carried away with his romantic aspirations that its hard to get a handle on his music but worth it when you do- strangely i have never rated the 4th symphony compared with the other symphonies = i must listen again  :)

Sean

Quote from: offbeat on December 31, 2009, 03:41:49 AM
i think i understand what you mean - for me Bax was not interested so much in structure but more in feelings and poetry - i think maybe he got a bit carried away with his romantic aspirations that its hard to get a handle on his music but worth it when you do- strangely i have never rated the 4th symphony compared with the other symphonies = i must listen again  :)

Hi offbeat, yes Bax is an interesting experience and I remember well being exasperated by his music at first, but then this more primal logic creeps up on you. The Fourth is the most controversial for the structuralists but is hence possibly his greatest symphony, not as benighted Handley et al would have it as the weakest: once I understood Bax I played the Thomson Fourth so much I could almost remember the whole wayward thing in my head.

Nice avatar by the way- is it you? Most posters feel some daft need not only to use false names but false images...

offbeat

Quote from: Sean on December 31, 2009, 05:09:29 AM
Hi offbeat, yes Bax is an interesting experience and I remember well being exasperated by his music at first, but then this more primal logic creeps up on you. The Fourth is the most controversial for the structuralists but is hence possibly his greatest symphony, not as benighted Handley et al would have it as the weakest: once I understood Bax I played the Thomson Fourth so much I could almost remember the whole wayward thing in my head.

Nice avatar by the way- is it you? Most posters feel some daft need not only to use false names but false images...
Yes Sean i have always liked Bax - when i first discovered his music i felt its language talked to me personally - hope this doesnt sound weird - Not quite so manic nowadays but still like his music espeically his symphonies particularly no 3 and 6 - maybe no 4 is less manic but all of them are good i think
re my avatar - haha no its arvo part another of my obsessions l :)

vandermolen

Interesting discussion here. My favourite Bax symphony CD performance is actually Raymond Leppard's Symphony 5 (LPO Lyrita) and I wait patiently for the CD release of Edward Downes' Symphony No 3 (LSO, RCA). Agree about the Thomson set too. Yes, Symphony No 4 is the one I listen to most - vastly under-valued and great in Thomson's Ulster version.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Sean

Sure thing. I got to know the Second from the Downs LSO.

offbeat

Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2010, 10:30:40 AM
Interesting discussion here. My favourite Bax symphony CD performance is actually Raymond Leppard's Symphony 5 (LPO Lyrita) and I wait patiently for the CD release of Edward Downes' Symphony No 3 (LSO, RCA). Agree about the Thomson set too. Yes, Symphony No 4 is the one I listen to most - vastly under-valued and great in Thomson's Ulster version.
oh thats interesting i did not realize Downes version of the 3rd going to cd - i have vinyl version but i have ditched my vinyl player years back - I dont usually like buying 2 versions of the same work (its a personal thing  ;D) but i might make an exception with the Downes - also tempted to get Del Mars sixth which i noticed is listed on amazon - had this on vinyl too and its brill  :)

vandermolen

Quote from: offbeat on January 03, 2010, 02:11:41 PM
oh thats interesting i did not realize Downes version of the 3rd going to cd - i have vinyl version but i have ditched my vinyl player years back - I dont usually like buying 2 versions of the same work (its a personal thing  ;D) but i might make an exception with the Downes - also tempted to get Del Mars sixth which i noticed is listed on amazon - had this on vinyl too and its brill  :)

Sorry to disappoint but no plan that I know of for the Downes No 3 to go to CD, but I live in hope.  Lyrita had some thoughts about this as it is run by Downes' son, Caractacus but since the death of his parents at the swiss Dignitas clinic, Lyrita seem to have gone very quiet.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

tjguitar

Quote from: vandermolen on December 28, 2009, 02:10:25 PM
Father Christmas bought me Bax's newly recorded 'Concertino for Piano and Orchestra' (1939). I greatly enjoyed this work.  I suspected that the diminutive title indicated a rather 'light' work, but this is not the case.  Bax's 'Concertino' seems to reflect the times in which it was written (Bax was despondent about the international scene in 1939). I'd say that the dreamy opening and the lyrical and turbulent first two movements are entirely characteristic of Bax's music at its (almost) best.  Any Bax fan should like this work and the John Ireland pieces make for a great programme (Somm label).

Father Christmas also bought me the Boult recording of Havergal Brian's 'Gothic Symphony' which I am much looking forward to hearing in due course.


I'm STILL waiting for this to be available on Amazon.com. Pretty soon I'm going to have to pay extra & import it.

schweitzeralan

Quote from: vandermolen on December 30, 2009, 06:57:08 AM
Don't have much to add except to say that I keep wanting to play the Bax (in fact the entire CD) which must be a good sign. The dreamy, rhapsodic opening of the Bax reminded me of Cyril Scott's Piano Concerto No 1 - a work I greatly admire.  I prefer the 'Legend' to the Piano Concerto by Ireland (I am over familiar with the PC, having c 8 different recordings of it).  The Piano Concertino is not top draw Bax but is a work of some power and depth, with a particularly engaging opening and First Movement. The First Movement soon develops a characteristically 'legendary' feel to it.  In spirit it compliments the John Ireland concerto and 'Legend' very well.

Just received the Concertino from amazon.UK.  They were quite pronto. Was not aware of the CD until I saw it in your posting.  Haven't  heard a new (to me) Bax work in years. Appreciate much the two  Ireland works.  Good disk.

vandermolen

Quote from: schweitzeralan on January 05, 2010, 10:44:51 AM
Just received the Concertino from amazon.UK.  They were quite pronto. Was not aware of the CD until I saw it in your posting.  Haven't  heard a new (to me) Bax work in years. Appreciate much the two  Ireland works.  Good disk.

What's your view of the Bax?
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Sean

#274
Of the piano and orchestra works I bought recordings of the Concertante for piano left hand, Morning song, Saga fragment Symphonic variations & Winter legends: of these the Symphonic variations is the overwhelming masterpiece, one of Bax's very greatest works and indeed one of the finest and most integrated sets of variations of any kind- the Fingerhut/ Thomson disc is superb, and had a memorable Gramophone review from Michael Kennedy when it came out 20 years back.

schweitzeralan

Quote from: vandermolen on January 06, 2010, 03:45:28 AM
What's your view of the Bax?

Heard it once.  From first hearing I sense, indeed, "feel" the Baxian current throughout.  Subtle passages comparable with other tone poem delights.  Will need a couple more exposures to assess fully. Nice find this recent first recording of a Baxian orchestral work of which I was totally unaware.

vandermolen

Quote from: schweitzeralan on January 06, 2010, 04:40:32 AM
Heard it once.  From first hearing I sense, indeed, "feel" the Baxian current throughout.  Subtle passages comparable with other tone poem delights.  Will need a couple more exposures to assess fully. Nice find this recent first recording of a Baxian orchestral work of which I was totally unaware.

Thanks. Yes, it's a nice discovery and is a characteristic work.  I like the South Downs cover  image (notwithstanding a cloud formation which resembles a nuclear explosion mushroom cloud!) as I live near the South Downs and often walk there (I have seen the converted windmill where John Ireland lived, with his cat).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

schweitzeralan

Quote from: vandermolen on January 07, 2010, 12:48:30 AM
Thanks. Yes, it's a nice discovery and is a characteristic work.  I like the South Downs cover  image (notwithstanding a cloud formation which resembles a nuclear explosion mushroom cloud!) as I live near the South Downs and often walk there (I have seen the converted windmill where John Ireland lived, with his cat).
I may be wrong, but I learned when I was in England years ago, that Bax and Ireland resided in  the same area of Sussex.  I do recall my having stayed three nights in  the same hotel where the maestro spent many of his later years; the name of the hotel escapes me for now.  I'll Google it. The English landscape is lovely, and much of it reminded me of the pastoral works of so many fine composers: Bax, Delius, Gibbs, VW, Howells, Lloyd, Hadley, Bliss, Butterworth, Bridge, Bainton, Moeran, Cyril Scott, plus others I don't immediately recall.



















Scott, Howelss, Gibbscompo

vandermolen

#278
Quote from: schweitzeralan on January 07, 2010, 03:34:15 AM
I may be wrong, but I learned when I was in England years ago, that Bax and Ireland resided in  the same area of Sussex.  I do recall my having stayed three nights in  the same hotel where the maestro spent many of his later years; the name of the hotel escapes me for now.  I'll Google it. The English landscape is lovely, and much of it reminded me of the pastoral works of so many fine composers: Bax, Delius, Gibbs, VW, Howells, Lloyd, Hadley, Bliss, Butterworth, Bridge, Bainton, Moeran, Cyril Scott, plus others I don't immediately recall.
Scott, Howelss, Gibbscompo

Yes, Bax and Ireland lived not far from each other in Sussex, which is where I live.  Bax lived for the last part of his life in a pub - The White Horse in Storrington.  I forced my wife to visit the pub with me once, a few years ago.  It was rather drab, but may be better now.  There is not much about Bax, but there is a plaque outside (see picture) and a little bit of information inside.  To be honest, it was a bit of a disappointment, but worth a visit if you are a Bax fan in the area.

John Ireland's converted windmill looks fun (see picture), but not open to the public I think.

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

schweitzeralan

Quote from: vandermolen on January 08, 2010, 06:25:55 AM
Yes, Bax and Ireland lived not far from each other in Sussex, which is where I live.  Bax lived for the last part of his life in a pub - The White Horse in Storrington.  I forced my wife to visit the pub with me once, a few years ago.  It was rather drab, but may be better now.  There is not much about Bax, but there is a plaque outside (see picture) and a little bit of information inside.  To be honest, it was a bit of a disappointment, but worth a visit if you are a Bax fan in the area.

John Ireland's converted windmill looks fun (see picture), but not open to the public I think.

Thanks for the reply.  Storrington!  Yes.  We also stayed a few days @a Bed and Breakfast.  Can't remember the names except the lady's first name:  Francis, I believe.  She did not kn ow of Bax but did she did mention  Elgar. I recall either having heard or via some uncalled email, that there was some information  regarding the White Horse Tavern; viz, that the room in  which Bax stayed had been somehow changed, or remodeled. I do recall Bax's picture in front of the White Horse Tavern.