Sir Arnold Bax

Started by tjguitar, April 15, 2007, 06:12:44 PM

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eyeresist

Quote from: Sean on December 31, 2009, 03:00:17 AM
However a word on the Handley symphonies set- there are some interesting insights and I particularly like his intoxicated Fourth (and his Spring Fire), but these recordings do Bax a grave disservice: as Handley himself explains on the interview CD, he looks at and tries to justify the music in traditional formal terms with symmetries and balance.

This is emphatically not what Bax was doing- he may often have began with a framework but goes on to use it only as a trellis to plaster his intuitively moving ideas (Shostakovich Fourth would be a similar example, Bax having closest relations with Shostakovich, and underlined by his often Russian themes): emphasizing sketchy sonata form and reducing the music's amazing inspiration in the moment per se to this is an enormous mistake- the music's achievement and fascination is in its self-justifying Dionysian logic not relation to Apollonian frames (Messiaen's juxtapositional style is another case of finding aesthetic logic across seemingly disparate material, independent of pre-given structure).

Sorry folks, you need to stick with the fabulous Thomson set.

Thanks for this interesting post. I've avoided the Handley set, as I find he too often overlooks expressive opportunities. Talk of record-setting fast tempos was also a turn-off. I have the Lloyd-Jones, which I'm happy with, apart from some sound problems (generally lacking in the warm mid-range frequencies). I have ordered the Lyrita disc of 1 and 7, as those had the poorest sound in the Naxos cycle.

It's a damn shame the Thomson set remains out of print. I'm sure many Baxians would welcome the opportunity to compare and contrast the two Chandos sets.

vandermolen

Quote from: eyeresist on January 20, 2010, 06:51:30 PM
Thanks for this interesting post. I've avoided the Handley set, as I find he too often overlooks expressive opportunities. Talk of record-setting fast tempos was also a turn-off. I have the Lloyd-Jones, which I'm happy with, apart from some sound problems (generally lacking in the warm mid-range frequencies). I have ordered the Lyrita disc of 1 and 7, as those had the poorest sound in the Naxos cycle.

It's a damn shame the Thomson set remains out of print. I'm sure many Baxians would welcome the opportunity to compare and contrast the two Chandos sets.

The Lyrita disc is outstanding - my favourite performance of both works. The Lyrita CD with Raymond Leppards 5th Symphony is also very good.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

kentel

#282
It took me a little bit time to read the whole thread, but I've learnt much about the interpretations of Bax's symphonies, as I only listened to the Thomson/Chandos one.

I thought I could contribute with a few impressions about Bax's works, as I have listened several of them and especially the fascinating Chandos series of orchestral works (#1).

- The symphonies : I don't like the Symphony nr.1 (1922): too brutal,  too much brass everywhere, rudely epic, thematically very poor. His Symphony nr.2 (1926) is a little better, more austere, but still with an orchestra swallowed up by the crushing brass section. Thematically still very hazy. Same problem with the Symphony nr.3 (1929) with its flashy bucolic orchestra. The Symphony nr.4 (1931) is built upon the same formula : flowing hazy bucolic strings, gigantic diplodocus-like brass section. It's a rather personnal music language, but excessive and blurred in my opinion. The Symphony nr.5  (1932) was a revelation to me, as it looks like Bax suddenly found the right balance between the different sections of the orchestra , and expressed his musical ideas with more enthraling themes and clearer structures. Without loosing his musical personnality : the result is a first masterpiece, followed by another one : the enthusiastic and luminous Symphony nr.6 (1935) but for me the best of all is his Symphony nr.7 (1939)  which achieves an extraordinary level of density of ideas and  inspiration.

- The Orchestral works : I havn't heard everything, but I enjoyed especially the b brisk pre-waltonian Sinfonietta (1932) with its winged strings and galloping brass. I also highly recommand the majestic and lively Festival Overture (1911), the slow and massive Christmas Eve on the Moutains (1912), the epic waltz-like Dance of the Wild Irravel (1912), the Tolkienian November Woods (1917) with its enchanting orchestra, the sweet and woodsy Summer Music (1917), the bright and colourful Symphonic Scherzo (1917, a good vintage), the magnificent Tintagel (1919) with its legendary accents and its massive brass section, the Overture, Elegy & Rondo (1927) is especially noticeable for its marvellous Elegy, one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard, and, Paean (1938), a triumphant piece built upon a trombone ostinato is also very representative of Bax's genius.

I also appreciate (but am not fond of) t : Into the Twilight (1908), whose atmosphere  recalls Turner's misty lights, Roscatha (1910)  is pleasant too with its aristocratic strings and its pastoral woodwind section. I also enjoyed listening to Nympholept  (1912) which is another enchanted landscape with fairy-like atmospheres, Spring Fire (1913) has a magnificent beginning (especially part I "In the Forest before Dawn" and II "Daybreak and Sunrise"), but afterwards it goes down with a rather flashy and heavy orchestra, The Garden of Fand (1916) is a lovely piece but strongly influenced by Delius, From Dusk til Dawn (1917) is a kind of graceful waltz, the Russian Dances (1919) do not sound very russian, but if you don't care they are fine too, The Truth about the Russian Dancers (1920) contains very nice and tidy themes, though not always catchy, the Overture to a Picaresque Comedy (1930) has beautiful light gauzy strings unfortunately spoiled by an elephantine brass section, The Tale the Pine Tree Knew (1931) is thematically very weak but orchestrally impressive. There is also 2 interesting pieces for orchestra & soloist : the Threnody & Scherzo (1936), a sweet piece with a gentle bassoon, and Maytime in Sussex (1946) with a flowing piano and a bucolic orchestra.

It is certainly personal BUT I do not like In the Fairy Hills (1910 - boring), In Memoriam (1916) with a solo english horn (thematically uninteresting), the Symphonic Variations (1918) (a very uninspired and  lisztian solo piano), Winter Legend (1930 - a brass section as gentle and delicate as a horde of mammoths), same problem with the Cortege (1925), the Northern Ballads nr. 2 & 3 (1933-34) could be great if it wasn't for these omnipresent cymbals, and A Legend (1944) suffers from the same problem as most failed Bax's pieces : the abuse of brass which swallow up everything around.

- The Concertos : I don't think they are the most interesting things ever written by Bax. The Cello Concerto (1932)  is a very elgarian but boring piece, the Flute Concerto (1936) is quiet and pleasant but again thematically uninteresting, the Violin Concerto (1938) is unsurprisingly very ornated and modulating, but OK though, and in the Piano Concerto (1939) the piano has sunk in the gigantic orchestra. The most interesting piece there is perhaps the Concertante for english horn, clarinet & horn (1949) with rather Sibelian accents.

Sorry, I wanted to make it as short as possible but Bax wrote so much that the challenge wasn't easy. Well, that's only impressions, I always welcome contradictory opinions of course.

Next episode (maybe) : the piano & chamber music :)

--Gilles

eyeresist

@kentel

Phew! So you don't like brass, then?

Lethevich

kentel - I admire anyone who is able to choose between the various tone poems, which I love but am still struggling to consider as a non-homogeneous group.

I would like to hear your opinions on the chamber and piano music, both of which I don't find fully idiomatic for the instruments or ensembles, but are very interesting regardless of that.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

kentel

Quote from: eyeresist on January 21, 2010, 03:57:47 PM
@kentel

Phew! So you don't like brass, then?

I love them ! But sometimes I just feel like the brass section in Bax symphonic works is so massive and crushing that it overshadows the other instruments. In itself, the idea of flaming gigantic brass is interesting and original, though.

--Gilles

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: kentel on January 21, 2010, 01:47:09 PM
I thought I could contribute with a few impressions about Bax's works, [etc]

Very interesting post. I haven't heard all of Bax's symphonies, but my impressions are a bit different from yours. I rank nos. 2 and especially 3 highly, but was disappointed by 6. I was not very impressed by 1, and while 5 was OK, I don't feel an urge to revisit it.

I think 2 & 3 both show a skillful integration of mood and structure, especially no. 3. (I like a "crushing brass section", so that's not a problem for me.)
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

kentel

#287
Quote from: Lethe on January 21, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
kentel - I admire anyone who is able to choose between the various tone poems, which I love but am still struggling to consider as a non-homogeneous group.

Thanks :) To say it in a nutshell, I think that Bax's music has 2 basic flaws (well I'm not sure this is the right word actually) :

- the overuse of brass at the expense of the other sections

- the weakness of his melodic inspiration

but, he's of course a genius of the orchestral colors, of the sophisticated atmospheres, a master of the big architectures, etc. no need to tell. Then, when he's also able to be melodically inspired + to hold is brass back, the result is just great. At least I think.

Quote from: Lethe on January 21, 2010, 10:07:10 PMI would like to hear your opinions on the chamber and piano music, both of which I don't find fully idiomatic for the instruments or ensembles, but are very interesting regardless of that.

I agree with you. Bax is mostly a composer for the orchestra, as are most English composers. But he wrote some beautiful pieces of chamber music too. I'll try to tell something about it :)

--Gilles

kentel

Quote from: Velimir on January 21, 2010, 11:03:59 PM
Very interesting post. I haven't heard all of Bax's symphonies, but my impressions are a bit different from yours. I rank nos. 2 and especially 3 highly, but was disappointed by 6. I was not very impressed by 1, and while 5 was OK, I don't feel an urge to revisit it.

I think 2 & 3 both show a skillful integration of mood and structure, especially no. 3. (I like a "crushing brass section", so that's not a problem for me.)

In fact, I wouldn't say that the first four are "bad" symphonies, I just feel like he did better in the others. But you're right : the moods are very elaborated, and structurally... how to put it... it takes your breath away.

But as I said I only heard the Thomson version, and from what I've read in this thread, I think I should try others...

--Gilles

vandermolen

Quote from: kentel on January 21, 2010, 11:14:56 PM
In fact, I wouldn't say that the first four are "bad" symphonies, I just feel like he did better in the others. But you're right : the moods are very elaborated, and structurally... how to put it... it takes your breath away.

But as I said I only heard the Thomson version, and from what I've read in this thread, I think I should try others...

--Gilles

Agree with you about No 5 but not about No 3 or 1 for that matter.  The CD with Christmas Eve, Nympholept etc on (Chandos/Thomson) is perhaps my favourite Bax compilation. Nympholept waas used as background music for a TV documentary on Tolkein many years ago.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

kentel

Quote from: vandermolen on January 21, 2010, 11:57:44 PM
Agree with you about No 5 but not about No 3 or 1 for that matter.  The CD with Christmas Eve, Nympholept etc on (Chandos/Thomson) is perhaps my favourite Bax compilation. Nympholept waas used as background music for a TV documentary on Tolkein many years ago.

That's exactly what I feel : it is completely tolkienian music  ! Epic, faery-like, enchanting, etc.

The cd you're thinking of is the vol.5 of the Orchestral Works series, I guess. I think it's my favorite too : there is 2 other great pieces on this one : Paean and the Festival Overture.

Well, I shall hear again this 3rd symphony. I am about to try the Lloyd-Jones version, as, from what I read here, he seems to take the problem from a radically different perspective

--Gilles

Lethevich



I'm currently listening to this disc that you two rate highly, and thanks for the pointer. Christmas Eve is stunning (and I suppose the next wave of Bax recordings could allow us to hear the original version) - it has such a scope of poetry and moments of almost manic intensity that are so typical of Bax that one has to smile when listening, only this piece has somewhat more urgency as well as a greater wealth of melodic ideas that make it stand out. The organ entry towards the end is absolutely magnificent. This has in one listen become a favourite Bax piece of mine - I don't know how I managed to miss it before now.

The very fine Festival Overture raises a question. This piece contains all the drama and scope of his other tone poems, so why did he give it such a generic title? It can be quite difficult to pick out any great differences in tone between Bax pieces, despite their variety of titles, but I suppose that the title is a matter of their inspiration rather than a pointer as to actual depications in the music on the most part...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Grazioso

Quote from: kentel on January 21, 2010, 11:09:24 PM
Thanks :) To say it in a nutshell, I think that Bax's music has 2 basic flaws (well I'm not sure this is the right word actually) :

- the overuse of brass at the expense of the other sections

Bax certainly brings out very divergent responses in listeners and interpreters! I find that, if anything, he under-uses brass compared to many Late Romantics and tends, if anything, to rely overly much on massed woodwinds (though that is part of what makes up his unique orchestration thumbprint). I'll grant that when he does use brass, it seems to lack the subtlety and diversity of employment you can find in others of his era, like Mahler.

Quote from: Lethe on January 21, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
I would like to hear your opinions on the chamber and piano music, both of which I don't find fully idiomatic for the instruments or ensembles, but are very interesting regardless of that.

I'd say "very interesting because of that" :)

Quote from: Velimir on January 21, 2010, 11:03:59 PM
Very interesting post. I haven't heard all of Bax's symphonies, but my impressions are a bit different from yours. I rank nos. 2 and especially 3 highly, but was disappointed by 6. I was not very impressed by 1, and while 5 was OK, I don't feel an urge to revisit it.

I think 2 & 3 both show a skillful integration of mood and structure, especially no. 3. (I like a "crushing brass section", so that's not a problem for me.)

I too tend to enjoy the earlier symphonies more. And speaking of the symphonies, earlier it was argued that Handley's emphasis on structure over immediate rhapsodic inspiration was wrong-headed, and I probably would have agreed in the past, but after hearing Handley's emphatic assertion (on the interview disc included in the box set) that Bax was in fact a great structuralist, I've listened more carefully to the symphonies in that light. More and more I find myself in agreement with him. Yes, Bax clearly had an improvisational-sounding, rhapsodic style, but there is definitely careful thematic development and unity behind the brooding and the poetic outbursts. Structure isn't neglected by Bax.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

vandermolen

#293
Quote from: kentel on January 22, 2010, 02:14:42 AM
That's exactly what I feel : it is completely tolkienian music  ! Epic, faery-like, enchanting, etc.

The cd you're thinking of is the vol.5 of the Orchestral Works series, I guess. I think it's my favorite too : there is 2 other great pieces on this one : Paean and the Festival Overture.

Well, I shall hear again this 3rd symphony. I am about to try the Lloyd-Jones version, as, from what I read here, he seems to take the problem from a radically different perspective

--Gilles

Actually the original release (see below) was better as it contained Bryden Thomson's fine performance of Tintagel, which has been replaced on Vol. 5 of the reissues by Overture to a Picaresque Comedy and Cortege, which are less interesting works.  But Vol 5 is at mid-price which is good. My favourite version of Symphony 3 was by Edward Downes and the LSO (RCA) - never released on CD  :(
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

#294
My Bax symphony recording recommendations:

No 1 Fredman (Lyrita)
No 2 Fredman (Lyrita) or great Goossens historical recording (Dutton)
No 3 Downes (RCA - LP)
No 4 Thomson (Chandos)
No 5 Leppard (Lyrita)
No 6 Thomson (Chandos) or Lloyd Jones (Naxos)
No 7 Leppard (Lyrita)

+ for orchestral works Vol 5 of the Chandos reissues (discussed above) is essential for Christmas Eve in the Mountains (only recording) etc.

ps I'm sure you all agree with my choices  8)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

offbeat

For me Bax's symphonies are the keystone to his romantic art - Kentel's analysis is interesting although personally disagree somewhat
No 1 - this has rather a raw overall look but the slow movement is full of mystery and menace and is one of his best movements imo - shame about the giveaway last......
No2 When first getting to know his symphonies about 50 light years away  :D the 2nd was imo the best due to the nightmarish atmosphere throughout - revised my opinion somewhat but still greatly admire
No3 First heard this on Edward Downes LSO recording on vinyl and is his most romantic symphony - the first movement has long build up and includes the inevitable interlude which pervades baxs whole output - the 2nd movement is so gorgeous and unusual and the famous theme in the last movement fades off into the sunset - great work
No4 Always had problem with 4 thinking hes taken his foot off the pedal here but recent replays forces me to acknowledge it has much going for it but maybe in a different way.
No5 structually is best imo and love the film like slow movement - uniquely baxian
No6 is personal favourite - just think the whole work is poetically out on its own and never tire hearing it
No7 - have to admit never got into this - very freeflowing but it doesnot work for me so much -ironically its the only bax symphony ive heard in concert hall.

when i get time want to listen more to his tone poems and chamber works - have listened in past but forgetten much of them - trouble with this forum is there is so much music to listen to and so little time   :o


kentel

Quote from: offbeat on January 22, 2010, 08:42:48 AM
For me Bax's symphonies are the keystone to his romantic art - Kentel's analysis is interesting although personally disagree somewhat
No 1 - this has rather a raw overall look but the slow movement is full of mystery and menace and is one of his best movements imo - shame about the giveaway last......
No2 When first getting to know his symphonies about 50 light years away  :D the 2nd was imo the best due to the nightmarish atmosphere throughout - revised my opinion somewhat but still greatly admire
No3 First heard this on Edward Downes LSO recording on vinyl and is his most romantic symphony - the first movement has long build up and includes the inevitable interlude which pervades baxs whole output - the 2nd movement is so gorgeous and unusual and the famous theme in the last movement fades off into the sunset - great work
No4 Always had problem with 4 thinking hes taken his foot off the pedal here but recent replays forces me to acknowledge it has much going for it but maybe in a different way.
No5 structually is best imo and love the film like slow movement - uniquely baxian
No6 is personal favourite - just think the whole work is poetically out on its own and never tire hearing it
No7 - have to admit never got into this - very freeflowing but it doesnot work for me so much -ironically its the only bax symphony ive heard in concert hall.

Thank you for sharing your opinion about the symphonies :  it's very interesting to compare different approaches of these (huge) works which are little music worlds in themselves - and I don't say I will never change my mind about the 4 first :) your comments tends to orientate my next listening(s) of these works in a rather different direction.

kentel

Quote from: vandermolen on January 22, 2010, 08:34:20 AM
My Bax symphony recording recommendations:

No 1 Fredman (Lyrita)
No 2 Fredman (Lyrita) or great Goossens historical recording (Dutton)
No 3 Downes (RCA - LP)
No 4 Thomson (Chandos)
No 5 Leppard (Lyrita)
No 6 Thomson (Chandos) or Lloyd Jones (Naxos)
No 7 Leppard (Lyrita)

+ for orchestral works Vol 5 of the Chandos reissues (discussed above) is essential for Christmas Eve in the Mountains (only recording) etc.

ps I'm sure you all agree with my choices  8)

Thank you for this discography : I read in several of your previous messages that you highly recommended the Lyrita versions. Unfortunately they don't have it on the Naxos Music Library, thus I'm limited to the LLoyd-Jones version right now but I already ordered the 2nd and 5th with Fredman and Leppard. Looking forward to listen to them, and especially the 2nd.

--Gilles

kentel

Quote from: Grazioso on January 22, 2010, 06:06:41 AM
Bax certainly brings out very divergent responses in listeners and interpreters! I find that, if anything, he under-uses brass compared to many Late Romantics and tends, if anything, to rely overly much on massed woodwinds (though that is part of what makes up his unique orchestration thumbprint). I'll grant that when he does use brass, it seems to lack the subtlety and diversity of employment you can find in others of his era, like Mahler.

I agree, but I think that most of Mahler's orchestral subtleties are inherited from Strauss (Johann), who was a genius of the orchestra. Too bad he only wrote waltz...

On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with your idea according to which late romantic composers use brass more than Bax. Who are you actually thinking about ?

--Gilles


vandermolen

#299
Quote from: kentel on January 22, 2010, 11:31:08 AM
Thank you for this discography : I read in several of your previous messages that you highly recommended the Lyrita versions. Unfortunately they don't have it on the Naxos Music Library, thus I'm limited to the LLoyd-Jones version right now but I already ordered the 2nd and 5th with Fredman and Leppard. Looking forward to listen to them, and especially the 2nd.

--Gilles

Nothing wrong with the Lloyd-Jones versions - you should be happy with them; 3-7 are all first rate and 4 has Nympholept with it (although I prefer Thomson's version).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).