Sir Arnold Bax

Started by tjguitar, April 15, 2007, 06:12:44 PM

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vandermolen

Quote from: offbeat on January 22, 2010, 08:42:48 AM
For me Bax's symphonies are the keystone to his romantic art - Kentel's analysis is interesting although personally disagree somewhat
No 1 - this has rather a raw overall look but the slow movement is full of mystery and menace and is one of his best movements imo - shame about the giveaway last......
No2 When first getting to know his symphonies about 50 light years away  :D the 2nd was imo the best due to the nightmarish atmosphere throughout - revised my opinion somewhat but still greatly admire
No3 First heard this on Edward Downes LSO recording on vinyl and is his most romantic symphony - the first movement has long build up and includes the inevitable interlude which pervades baxs whole output - the 2nd movement is so gorgeous and unusual and the famous theme in the last movement fades off into the sunset - great work
No4 Always had problem with 4 thinking hes taken his foot off the pedal here but recent replays forces me to acknowledge it has much going for it but maybe in a different way.
No5 structually is best imo and love the film like slow movement - uniquely baxian
No6 is personal favourite - just think the whole work is poetically out on its own and never tire hearing it
No7 - have to admit never got into this - very freeflowing but it doesnot work for me so much -ironically its the only bax symphony ive heard in concert hall.

when i get time want to listen more to his tone poems and chamber works - have listened in past but forgetten much of them - trouble with this forum is there is so much music to listen to and so little time   :o

Interesting comments - I am largely in agreement, although I've always found the last few minutes of No 7 terribly moving and like the work as a whole - especially in Leppard's recording.  Northern Ballad No 1 is a favourite short work - also rather epic and Tolkenian.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

By the way - I've just been listening to Madetoja's fine Second Symphony - it is quite Baxian in a way.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Grazioso

Quote from: vandermolen on January 23, 2010, 01:29:32 AM
By the way - I've just been listening to Madetoja's fine Second Symphony - it is quite Baxian in a way.

And the magical second movement nocturne of Madetoja's first symphony somewhat calls to mind the inner movement of Bax's second symphony.

(For those who don't know Madetoja, you're missing out on one of the tragically unsung symphonists of the early 20th century, a real talent.)
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

vandermolen

Quote from: Grazioso on January 23, 2010, 04:34:04 AM
And the magical second movement nocturne of Madetoja's first symphony somewhat calls to mind the inner movement of Bax's second symphony.

(For those who don't know Madetoja, you're missing out on one of the tragically unsung symphonists of the early 20th century, a real talent.)

I agree!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

kentel

Quote from: vandermolen on January 23, 2010, 11:12:57 AM
I agree!

I don't like Madetoja at all, but I find the comparison interesting : Bax and Sibelius were deeply influenced by Debussy, and I consider Madetoja as an epigone of Sibelius (as a matter of fact, the language is exactly the same). Debussy is perhaps the common denominator (?).

--Gilles

 

vandermolen

Quote from: kentel on January 23, 2010, 01:57:25 PM
I don't like Madetoja at all, but I find the comparison interesting : Bax and Sibelius were deeply influenced by Debussy, and I consider Madetoja as an epigone of Sibelius (as a matter of fact, the language is exactly the same). Debussy is perhaps the common denominator (?).

--Gilles



OK then, try Stanley Bate's Third Symphony, which definitely has Baxian moments (as does Arthur Butterworth's 4th Symphony - both on Dutton). Both great symphonies IMHO.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

kentel

Quote from: vandermolen on January 23, 2010, 11:53:42 PM
OK then, try Stanley Bate's Third Symphony, which definitely has Baxian moments (as does Arthur Butterworth's 4th Symphony - both on Dutton). Both great symphonies IMHO.

Thank you for the tip :) I don't know Bate at all - and have never heard any of Butterworth symphonies... (but the Argo cd with Coleridge-Taylor was great).

Grazioso

Quote from: kentel on January 23, 2010, 01:57:25 PM
I don't like Madetoja at all, but I find the comparison interesting : Bax and Sibelius were deeply influenced by Debussy, and I consider Madetoja as an epigone of Sibelius (as a matter of fact, the language is exactly the same). Debussy is perhaps the common denominator (?).

--Gilles



To my ear, Madetoja resembles some of Sibelius, but to say their language is "exactly the same" would be to stretch the comparison past the breaking point.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

kentel

Quote from: Grazioso on January 24, 2010, 04:16:28 AM
To my ear, Madetoja resembles some of Sibelius, but to say their language is "exactly the same" would be to stretch the comparison past the breaking point.

OK, if you can find a passage of one of these 3 symphonies which is not harmonically or orchestrally pure Sibelius, I will admitt that I'm wrong. Maybe I am actually, but I've heard the symphonies several times and I don't remember a single minute which is not (bad) Sibelius.

Don't misunderstand me : I love Sibelius.

--Gilles

schweitzeralan

Quote from: Grazioso on January 23, 2010, 04:34:04 AM
And the magical second movement nocturne of Madetoja's first symphony somewhat calls to mind the inner movement of Bax's second symphony.

(For those who don't know Madetoja, you're missing out on one of the tragically unsung symphonists of the early 20th century, a real talent.)

I agree.  Madetoja wrote three convincing symphonies, the second of which is, in my opinion, a true masterpiece.

vandermolen

Quote from: schweitzeralan on January 24, 2010, 06:27:32 AM
I agree.  Madetoja wrote three convincing symphonies, the second of which is, in my opinion, a true masterpiece.
I agree - Symphony No 2 gets better and better as it progresses - the epilogue is very moving expressing IMHO a kind of resigned acceptance of fate. The powerful march like section in the last movement is another highlight.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

kentel

Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2010, 02:23:27 AM
I agree - Symphony No 2 gets better and better as it progresses - the epilogue is very moving expressing IMHO a kind of resigned acceptance of fate. The powerful march like section in the last movement is another highlight.

well well, it looks like I am in a minority positon here...  3 messages in a row to tell how brilliant is Madetoja, I think I begin to get the point. But ok then, I won't say anything bad about Madetoja anymore...

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

OK, Baxians. Given, that I haven't properly listened to Shostakovich 7, 8 and 10: Why and what symphonic Bax should prefer over Shosta?

Grazioso

Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 25, 2010, 10:45:35 AM
OK, Baxians. Given, that I haven't properly listened to Shostakovich 7, 8 and 10: Why and what symphonic Bax should prefer over Shosta?

They're worlds apart. You can happily enjoy both. For Bax symphony recommendations, see the recent posts above.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Sean

Quote from: eyeresist on January 20, 2010, 06:51:30 PM
Thanks for this interesting post. I've avoided the Handley set, as I find he too often overlooks expressive opportunities. Talk of record-setting fast tempos was also a turn-off. I have the Lloyd-Jones, which I'm happy with, apart from some sound problems (generally lacking in the warm mid-range frequencies). I have ordered the Lyrita disc of 1 and 7, as those had the poorest sound in the Naxos cycle.

It's a damn shame the Thomson set remains out of print. I'm sure many Baxians would welcome the opportunity to compare and contrast the two Chandos sets.

Sure thing. Best wishes.

drogulus

Quote from: eyeresist on January 20, 2010, 06:51:30 PM


It's a damn shame the Thomson set remains out of print. I'm sure many Baxians would welcome the opportunity to compare and contrast the two Chandos sets.

      Amazon has the Thomson set for <$50 used, and Chandos offers the set as mp3s for £23.97. Furthermore the CDs are still available individually on the Chandos site for £7.99 ea. OOP ain't what it used to be.

     
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eyeresist

I recently received three CDs of Bax tone poems conducted by Thomson (vols 3, 4 & 5 of the reissues), ordered because I wanted something well upholstered, to contrast with the brisk, occasionally thin Lloyd-Jones recordings. I'm currently having a sneaky listen to vol.3  at work (earbuds), and enjoying it. Obviously not the most vigorous alternatives, but a great Romantic wallow, and these Ulster recordings sound very nice indeed.

Plus there are some pieces I haven't heard before: Roscatha, A Legend, On the Sea Shore, Festival Overture, and Christmas Eve (as recommended in this thread).

vandermolen

Quote from: eyeresist on February 11, 2010, 06:44:50 PM
I recently received three CDs of Bax tone poems conducted by Thomson (vols 3, 4 & 5 of the reissues), ordered because I wanted something well upholstered, to contrast with the brisk, occasionally thin Lloyd-Jones recordings. I'm currently having a sneaky listen to vol.3  at work (earbuds), and enjoying it. Obviously not the most vigorous alternatives, but a great Romantic wallow, and these Ulster recordings sound very nice indeed.

Plus there are some pieces I haven't heard before: Roscatha, A Legend, On the Sea Shore, Festival Overture, and Christmas Eve (as recommended in this thread).

The CD with Christmas Eve and the Festival Overture on is great.  It also contains my favourite version of the atmospheric Nympholept.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

drogulus

Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2010, 11:51:51 PM
The CD with Christmas Eve and the Festival Overture on is great.  It also contains my favourite version of the atmospheric Nympholept.

     That disk (#5 in the series) is excellent. Nympholept is one of my favs, too. The disk with Spring Fire and the Northern Ballads Nos. 2 & 3 is another great one.
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kentel

#319
As I promised to do it (in #282), here are a few impressions about the chamber works. As usual, I tried to make it short. Useless to say that I always welcome contradictory opinions of course - these are just impressionistic descriptions, and I can even change my mind (as we say on this side of the Channel : Il n'y a que les imbéciles qui ne changent pas d'avis - and I try not to be one).

Bax's orchestral language is clearly personal and original; It is not the case of most of his chamber works : you have almost all Bax's chamber language embedded within Debussy's String Quartet; and this is rather frustrating. However; some pieces are worth listening, and a few of them are true masterpieces.

This is for ex. the case of the bright and sunny Violin Sonata nr.1 (1910) and of the Violin Sonata Nr.2 (1915), clear and warm like a cup of tea (I hope you see what I mean...). I found the 2 last ones (Violin Sonata nr.3 from 1927 and Violin Sonata nr.4 from 1928) very disappointing in comparison : they sound grey and gloomy. There is also a G minor Violin Sonata from 1901, a rather academic piece, but which shows that at the age of 18 Bax was already an accomplished composer.

The Elegiac Trio for harp, violin & flute (1916) is another great piece, delicate and aquatic, which I highly recommend, as well as the contemplative and pastoral Nonet for string quintet (with doublebass) (1930), though not as enthralling as the previous one. The Clarinet Sonata (1934) is fine too, smooth and flowing, and I enjoyed the soft and muffled Folk Tale for cello & piano (1918).

I am not enthusiastic of the other pieces : the Romance for clarinet & piano (1901) is uninteresting, the very romantic Quintet (1908) is pleasant but tasteless, the Legend for violin & piano (1915) is another peri-brahmsian out of date romantic piece. The Lyrical Interlude for String Quintet (1914) is pure Debussy. The Oboe Quintet (1922) with its fine strings part and its singing oboe could be a beautiful piece if it was not for the weakness of its thematic inspiration. One could expect the Harp Quintet (1919) to be a fairy-like and graceful piece : it is not. The Phantasy Sonata for harp & violin (1927) is drab and boring, the Sonata for flute & harp (1928) is a pale imitation of Debussy, the Ballad for violin & piano (1929) is very lively but uneventful and the Octet with horn & piano (1934) has some fine sonorities but is not the most catchy thing Bax ever wrote.

I was especially disappointed by the String Quartets which are completely overshadowed by Debussy. Chronologically : the String Quartet "Cathaleen-ni-Hoolihan" (1905) is pure Debussy. With the String Quartet nr.1 (1918) we go back in time : it is pure Dvorak, the String Quartet nr.2 (1925) is pure Debussy again, and the String Quartet nr.3 (1936) has something baxian with its light gauzy harmonies and its elaborated counterpoints, but is still very debussian.

The trios : the Piano Trio nr.1 (1908) is simply boring, but the Piano Trio nr.2 (1946), one of Bax's last pieces, is also one of the most beautiful, and maybe his most successfull chamber work : torrents of notes flowing from the piano, beautiful strings' themes and a wonderful slow movement, as delicate as a butterfly on a flower.

Next time, the piano

--Gilles