Sir Arnold Bax

[schweitzeralan]

OK then, try Stanley Bate's Third Symphony, which definitely has Baxian moments (as does Arthur Butterworth's 4th Symphony - both on Dutton). Both great symphonies IMHO.

Just observing this wonderful postings on three or four of my ingrained favorites. Great to acknowledge there is interest out there and knowledge on Bax, Sibelius, Madetoja, Debussy, Butterworth (will get back to his 4th). But Stanley Bates?  Now who's THAT one? 

[vandermolen]

Just observing this wonderful postings on three or four of my ingrained favorites. Great to acknowledge there is interest out there and knowledge on Bax, Sibelius, Madetoja, Debussy, Butterworth (will get back to his 4th). But Stanley Bates?  Now who's THAT one?

Our musical tastes are similar and I suspect that you'd respond positively to Stanley Bate's Third Symphony. Here is a link to the Amazon UK site as you can read two reviews (one by me). The Viola Concerto is IMHO a lovely work. Both works have affinites to the VW of the 6th Symphony - Bate is my best discovery of last year. I'm sure you'd like Erik Chisholm's 'Pictures from Dante' too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arnell-Bate-Chisholm-Orchestral-Works/dp/B002VPR7HQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266673962&sr=8-3

And here is a detailed article about Bate:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/bate/index.htm

[schweitzeralan]

Our musical tastes are similar and I suspect that you'd respond positively to Stanley Bate's Third Symphony. Here is a link to the Amazon UK site as you can read two reviews (one by me). The Viola Concerto is IMHO a lovely work. Both works have affinites to the VW of the 6th Symphony - Bate is my best discovery of last year. I'm sure you'd like Erik Chisholm's 'Pictures from Dante' too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arnell-Bate-Chisholm-Orchestral-Works/dp/B002VPR7HQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266673962&sr=8-3

And here is a detailed article about Bate:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/bate/index.htm

Thanks for the reply.  Soon after reading your message I did a search on Bate and did the order thru Amazon.com/UK.  This was for the 3rd.  I don't kn ow if his 4th is recorded.  I'll give it a try.  FYI: re listened to the A. Butterworth 4th.  Am liking it more and more.  Quite Tapiolesque.  Interesting to learn that you have published review on Bate.

[vandermolen]

Thanks for the reply.  Soon after reading your message I did a search on Bate and did the order thru Amazon.com/UK.  This was for the 3rd.  I don't kn ow if his 4th is recorded.  I'll give it a try.  FYI: re listened to the A. Butterworth 4th.  Am liking it more and more.  Quite Tapiolesque.  Interesting to learn that you have published review on Bate.

I'd like to claim the review as a great literary achivement - but in fact anyone can put a review on the Amazon site! Glad you like Butterworth - me too. It quotes directly from Sibelius' The Tempest, but it all seems integrated and the ending has me on the edge of my seat. Try the Bate if you can.  No 4 not recorded yet,but hopefully Dutton will do it. Do you know Arnell's symphonies on Dutton? Nos 3-5 are superb works - very Baxian/Sibelian/Moerenian etc

[schweitzeralan]

I'd like to claim the review as a great literary achivement - but in fact anyone can put a review on the Amazon site! Glad you like Butterworth - me too. It quotes directly from Sibelius' The Tempest, but it all seems integrated and the ending has me on the edge of my seat. Try the Bate if you can.  No 4 not recorded yet,but hopefully Dutton will do it. Do you know Arnell's symphonies on Dutton? Nos 3-5 are superb works - very Baxian/Sibelian/Moerenian etc

Indeed.  I also have several reviews on Amazon; a few literary as well as musical.  Good that you post reviews, specifically on works that I appreciate.  I did order an Arnell work some time ago; however, I wasn't all that impressed somehow.  Unfortunately I can't recall details on why I wasn't impressed.  I don't even recall the title.  I sort of "donated" it to a musical friend.  I shall, however, give it another trial.  Now that I'm thinking about it, I just wanted to say that I was listening to John Vincent's Symphonic Poem After Descartes.  Nice work. Recreates occasional Sibelian "imagery."  Many if not most of his music evinces that certain  "American" sound reminiscent of Copland and/or Roy Harris.

[vandermolen]

Indeed.  I also have several reviews on Amazon; a few literary as well as musical.  Good that you post reviews, specifically on works that I appreciate.  I did order an Arnell work some time ago; however, I wasn't all that impressed somehow.  Unfortunately I can't recall details on why I wasn't impressed.  I don't even recall the title.  I sort of "donated" it to a musical friend.  I shall, however, give it another trial.  Now that I'm thinking about it, I just wanted to say that I was listening to John Vincent's Symphonic Poem After Descartes.  Nice work. Recreates occasional Sibelian "imagery."  Many if not most of his music evinces that certain  "American" sound reminiscent of Copland and/or Roy Harris.

Never heard of John Vincent, but will look out for it. Arnell symphonies 3-5 are the ones to go for IMHO.

[Sean]

Hi kentel

I read your Bax chamber overview. I know many of those works and agree superficially with many of your comments, but you're missing the essence of Bax, which is a contact with the visceral Dionysian inner imperatives of art, in an English empirical context.

[eyeresist]

contact with the visceral Dionysian inner imperatives of art, in an English empirical context.

Sends my wongles all jangly.

[schweitzeralan]

Our musical tastes are similar and I suspect that you'd respond positively to Stanley Bate's Third Symphony. Here is a link to the Amazon UK site as you can read two reviews (one by me). The Viola Concerto is IMHO a lovely work. Both works have affinites to the VW of the 6th Symphony - Bate is my best discovery of last year. I'm sure you'd like Erik Chisholm's 'Pictures from Dante' too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arnell-Bate-Chisholm-Orchestral-Works/dp/B002VPR7HQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266673962&sr=8-3

And here is a detailed article about Bate:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/bate/index.htm

Received the Cd with the Bate recording.  Only listened to it once, but I was impressed by the initial exposure.  Very dramatic, and, just as critics and/or reviewewrs stated, there is a strong resemblance to some of the VW symphonies.  Will continue listening.  Since I have been accessing Amazon/UK I have been receiving several ads, most of which I immediately delate; however, I did order Janacek's Piano Sonata along with two other works with which I am familiar.  Just asking your opinion on the Sonata.  Are you at all familiar with it? I like his orchestral works.

[vandermolen]

Received the Cd with the Bate recording.  Only listened to it once, but I was impressed by the initial exposure.  Very dramatic, and, just as critics and/or reviewewrs stated, there is a strong resemblance to some of the VW symphonies.  Will continue listening.  Since I have been accessing Amazon/UK I have been receiving several ads, most of which I immediately delate; however, I did order Janacek's Piano Sonata along with two other works with which I am familiar.  Just asking your opinion on the Sonata.  Are you at all familiar with it? I like his orchestral works.

Glad you enjoyed the Bate - did you listen to Chisholm's 'Pictures from Dante' yet?

[schweitzeralan]

Glad you enjoyed the Bate - did you listen to Chisholm's 'Pictures from Dante' yet?

Not yet.  I only had the time for listenig to the Bate work.  I'll let you know how itr went with the  Chisholm.  Another newbie for me. Enjoy the Bate; hope the Chisholm appeals.

[kentel]

Hi kentel

I read your Bax chamber overview. I know many of those works and agree superficially with many of your comments, but you're missing the essence of Bax, which is a contact with the visceral Dionysian inner imperatives of art, in an English empirical context.

Hi Sean,

Glad we agree about Bax  - even superficially : I wanted to make it as short and descriptive as possible going through the whole corpus of Bax's chamber works, but in a few words' comment you can't be anything else but superficial. Unfortunately.

I don't miss the dionysian aspect of Bax's music. It is mostly inherited from Debussy I think. And maybe from Elgar too, as a matter of fact. Who are you thinking of when talking about the english empirical context ?

Talking about the influences, it's a pity that the celtic one is so absent of his works, in spite of his well-known attraction for the celtic world. I quote the Wikipedia :

"His musical style blended elements of romanticism and impressionism, always with a strong Celtic influence"

but I don't hear anything celtic in his music....

---Gilles

[eyeresist]

Talking about the influences, it's a pity that the celtic one is so absent of his works, in spite of his well-known attraction for the celtic world. I quote the Wikipedia :

"His musical style blended elements of romanticism and impressionism, always with a strong Celtic influence"

but I don't hear anything celtic in his music....

"Wikipedia entry in error" shock horror. You're right, he uses fairly "respectable" musical means to evoke Celtic scenes in the early tone poems. The Celtic context goes pretty much out the window after he starts on his symphonies.

[kentel]

"Wikipedia entry in error" shock horror. You're right, he uses fairly "respectable" musical means to evoke Celtic scenes in the early tone poems. The Celtic context goes pretty much out the window after he starts on his symphonies.

The feeling I had with the symphonies and the later works was, that he still used respectable musical means to evoke Celtic Scenes. But if he uses celtic tunes somewhere , I just don't hear them. I was born and lived 27 years in a celtic country, hearing celtic tunes and melodies all the time, the traditionnal bagadoù with their binioù and their bombards in the streets, the harp players on the market place every thursday, the big fest noz, the canticles at church, the songs of my grandmother, the kan ha diskan, etc. And my old music teacher was interessed in nothing but Bach and the celtic tradionnal music.

So, I guess I can recognize a celtic tune when there is one. And I don't hear anything in Bax's, but maybe he did use celtic tunes, the material is just completely diluted within the post-romantic/impressionistic style.

I got the same feeling when I heard the 24 Negro Songs by Samuel- Coleridge Taylor : you can barely hear anything african there, though he did use african tunes. But what you hear is mostly romantic schumann-like piano pieces.

On the contrary, when you listen to Borodine or, better, Mussorgsky, no doubt there are russian folk tunes there... I wish I could hear the celtic ones so clearly in Bax's symphonies...

--Gilles

[schweitzeralan]

Glad you enjoyed the Bate - did you listen to Chisholm's 'Pictures from Dante' yet?

Just listened to the Chisholms Dantesque musical drama.  Quite dynamic and restless.  Good work.  Little is known of this Scottish composer, at least among the general public.  Enjoyed the three works. Do hope you get the opportunity to get ahold of the Vincent work.  The Symphony After Descartes is a wonderful piece;  again, some Sibelian suggestive passages as I indicated previously.  No great masterpiece; but, in my opinion, after having listened to it for many years, it remains a distant favorite, a solid symphonic achievement.

[vandermolen]

Just listened to the Chisholms Dantesque musical drama.  Quite dynamic and restless.  Good work.  Little is known of this Scottish composer, at least among the general public.  Enjoyed the three works. Do hope you get the opportunity to get ahold of the Vincent work.  The Symphony After Descartes is a wonderful piece;  again, some Sibelian suggestive passages as I indicated previously.  No great masterpiece; but, in my opinion, after having listened to it for many years, it remains a distant favorite, a solid symphonic achievement.

Have ordered the Vincent which I found relatively inexpensively on the US Amazon site - will let you know what I think.  Thanks for the recommendation. Am currently enjoying Klami's 'Northern Lights' and the lovely ' Cheremissian Fantasy' - a nice discovery.

[Sean]

Alright there kentel, sorry for the late reply, I've kind-of got disillusioned with forums, anyway Bax will remain for me a gigantic figure in the entire history of music, a real connection with inward visceral experience which few other composers share.

Debussy is an influence but as with Delius and others the big W lurks formidably in the background and his immense influence in terms of intuitive insight into the movement of musical material. Elgar is there in the confidence but not in the structure- Elgar was a classicist...

By the empiricist influence I mean the pointed step by step detailed conception of composition the English bring in distinction to the Germanics- the slow mov of the Third symph is one example of one inspired idea after another, self-justifying and negating architectonics.

I agree with you about the Celtic thing, I'm not sure what Celtic music is, but the Irish interest provides English music here of exceptional interest and value. Bax will indeed have his day, he will.

Hi Sean,

Glad we agree about Bax  - even superficially : I wanted to make it as short and descriptive as possible going through the whole corpus of Bax's chamber works, but in a few words' comment you can't be anything else but superficial. Unfortunately.

I don't miss the dionysian aspect of Bax's music. It is mostly inherited from Debussy I think. And maybe from Elgar too, as a matter of fact. Who are you thinking of when talking about the english empirical context ?

Talking about the influences, it's a pity that the celtic one is so absent of his works, in spite of his well-known attraction for the celtic world. I quote the Wikipedia :

"His musical style blended elements of romanticism and impressionism, always with a strong Celtic influence"

but I don't hear anything celtic in his music....

---Gilles

[Martin Lind]

I owe the Handley but I am less enthusiastic about Bax. Besides the Handley I possess Naxos with some tone poems and an Emi CD with Tintagle.

I enjoy Tintagle alot ( an old recording with Boult). When I started with the symphonies, I started with the 1st and 3rd. Difficult stuff. I can enjoy them now, but still think that there is greater music. But the 2nd disc left me completely cold, the 2nd symphony bored me endlessly and when I started the 4th it was not better. The rest I haven't heard.

Regards
Martin

[Lethevich]

The 5th-7th are certainly the most recognisably "Baxian". The 5th is unusually sunny and understated, the 6th is most peoples favourite, the 7th is perhaps the closest in mood to Tintagel in its "unaffected" mood.

No point forcing it though, but there's plenty of good stuff to return to when you're in the mood for it.

[Scarpia]

I realized I have no Bax other than the symphonies, and found these two release at very attractive prices (second hand).