Europe at War

[Todd]

Some time ago, our friend from the Pacific Northwest kept saying that European posters had no business opining on US politics, and now he'll not waste any chance to post his biased  views on what's happening this side of the Atlantic (as he has his own axe to grind). Cosas veredes, amigo Sancho....

The fundamental difference is that Europe relies on US taxpayer money, American military power, and potentially putting the lives of American soldiers at risk to defend countries of varying levels of value and usefulness.  Were Europeans to handle European security matters themselves, or if all European "partners" would act in good faith and actually live up to their treaty obligations, it would be different. 

Why, is it my fault if you sound exactly like Russian propaganda? 

Meh.

[Florestan]

Some time ago, our friend from the Pacific Northwest kept saying that European posters had no business opining on US politics, and now he'll not waste any chance to post his biased  views on what's happening this side of the Atlantic

Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi. 

[Florestan]

The fundamental difference is that Europe relies on US taxpayer money, American military power, and potentially putting the lives of American soldiers at risk to defend countries of varying levels of value and usefulness. 

I've said it before, I say it again: this is a complaint you should lay at the doors of the White House, the Congress and the Pentagon --- not of us European GMGers. 

[Todd]

I've said it before, I say it again: this is a complaint you should lay at the doors of the White House, the Congress and the Pentagon. Even better, write your Congressman. 

I voted in last week's primary.

In addition, I would say that every European member of this forum who lives in a country that shamefully fails to live up to its obligations should contact their government and demand that appropriate action be taken.  I suspect that will not occur.

[Florestan]

if all European "partners" would act in good faith and actually live up to their treaty obligations, it would be different.

Trump said all NATO European countries were obliged by the treaty to allocate 2% of their GDP to military/defence spendings. Romania allocates 2.5% to exactly that purpose. Do we receive your stamp of approval? If no, why not?

[Todd]

Trump said all NATO European countries were obliged by the treaty to allocate 2% of their GDP on military/defence spendings. Romania allocates 2.5% to exactly that purpose. Do we receive your stamp of approval? If no, why not?

It has nothing to do with Trump.  NATO members agreed to 2006 to devote 2% of GDP to defense spending.  Most failed to do so.  They agreed in 2014 to reach the goal by 2024.  The Russo-Ukrainian War may end up leading to this outcome.  (jk)  Some countries like Romania meet their obligations, and for that such members deserve kudos.  Romania deserves kudos.  That does not make Romania as important an ally as Turkey or France or the UK.  Not even close.

[Florestan]

It has nothing to do with Trump.  NATO members agreed to 2006 to devote 2% of GDP to defense spending.  Most failed to do so.  They agreed in 2014 to reach the goal by 2024.  The Russo-Ukrainian War may end up leading to this outcome.  (jk)  Some countries like Romania meet their obligations, and for that such members deserve kudos.  Romania deserves kudos.  That does not make Romania as important an ally as Turkey or France or the UK.  Not even close.

Moving the goal post once again.  If the treaty obligations were met, the things would be different. The treaty obligations are met, the things are still not different.

[Todd]

Moving the goal post once again.  If the treaty obligations were met, the things would be different. The treaty obligations are met, the things are still not different.

Romania deserves kudos for meeting its obligations.  Romania should not be part of NATO. 

[Florestan]

Romania deserves kudos for meeting its obligations.  Romania should not be part of NATO.

Well, Romania is part of NATO and will remain so until Judgment Day. Get over it, my friend ally!   

[Todd]

Well, Romania is part and parcel of NATO and will remain so until Judgment Day.

That is very highly unlikely.  No international system lasts forever.  The current one will be no exception. 

[Florestan]

That is very highly unlikely.  No international system lasts forever.  The current one will be no exception.

"Until Judgment Day" is a figure of speech equivalent to "for the remainder of our lifetime" --- I am greatly surprised that such a fine analyst of the slightest nuance(s) in piano playing like you is unable to decypher them in plain and prosaic English speech.

[Todd]

"Until Judgment Day" is a figure of speech equivalent to "for the remainder of our lifetime" --- I am greatly surprised that such a fine analyst of the slightest nuance(s) in piano playing like you is unable to decypher them in plain and prosaic English speech.

Personalizing.

[Florestan]

Personalizing.

Meh.

[71 dB]

I see Todd's lunatic posts because people keep quoting his ramblings.

[Florestan]

[Todd's] own shithole country

This is rude and uncalled for, Poju.

Really, my friend --- your nation have just applied for membership to an alliance formed and led by what you call a shithole country.

Watch your mouth!

[71 dB]

This is rude and uncalled for, Poju.

Really, my friend --- your nation have just applied for membership to an alliance formed and led by what you call a shithole country.

Watch your mouth!

Yes, it is rude! I am tired of him running his mouth like americans were so special. At least you live in a NATO country. I have to wait God knows how many months thanks to Turkey for this shit to finally end. Don't quote his posts. That's how I don't see them.

Finnish media is all about "Will Russia attack Finland?" How am I supposed to know if that is just idiotic clickbate journalism or something that can happen? I want to sleep well. NATO helps with that.

To Todd: We don't want US tax money. We want peace.

[Todd]

To Todd: We don't want US tax money. We want peace.

Which requires US taxpayer money and military power.  Facts can be hard to accept.

[drogulus]

     The US spends US dollars on defense of the US. Since the US needs to defend the world economy all over the world to defend itself it requires allies and bases everywhere.

     The responsibility falls foremost on the country with the means and the motivation. The US is massively endowed with both.

     Taxpayers gain hugely from the ROI in defense. Right now it's about 3.4% of GDP. Consider also that defense dollars percolate through the economy just like other dollars do. We fukin' pay ourselves for our defense, and much of what we spend defending allies comes back to us, too, and much of it never leaves the country.

     Who said the business of America is business? Well, the business of defending the world is good business, and we pay ourselves well to conduct it.

[Que]

     Who said the business of America is business? Well, the business of defending the world is good business, and we pay ourselves well to conduct it.

Absolutely. The US contributes to the defence of others in order to protect its economic interests and its global hegemony.
It's just a good investment - there is nothing altruistic about it. Some decisions are delusional and downright madness, like invading Iraq. But don't blame the Europeans for that - they didn't vote for it, nor did they ask for it.

Now the power of the US is waning, Europe needs to step up. And it will. Wishing for the downfall of the European Union, or the US federal government, is not going to help very much.

[MusicTurner]

Agree. Here in DK we'll have a referendum on the 1st of June about joining the EU defense collaboration, likely to be voted yes for.