Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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Todd

Quote from: absolutelybaching on September 27, 2022, 05:08:37 AMSo you're wrong on all counts, I think.

The fact that you now make it point to clarify that you have no knowledge of demographics indicates otherwise.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

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MusicTurner

#3441
The sudden, major leakages in both Russo-German Nord Stream pipes in the Baltic Sea are definitely the result of sabotage undersea, and experts here are discussing a lot, who the perpetrator is; a bit surprisingly perhaps, some are pointing to Russian intelligence, and not the US; Biden has actually warned, that the US could do such a thing. Given our NATO membership history, it's highly unlikely that the US would be called a suspect from Danish officials, or that a first inquiry would make such a conclusion ... but Russia will have some advantages from the leakages too, now that the gas export via the pipes went down a lot already - such as trying to facilitate anti-war feelings among the German public this winter, or using it for a generally escalated rhetoric.

The leakages will also cause environmental problems.

Todd

Quote from: absolutelybaching on September 27, 2022, 05:21:09 AM
I clarify now because you seem confused on the point.
Or are just being willfully obtuse about it.

For which reason, back on the ignore list you go.

Very good.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

JBS

Quote from: absolutelybaching on September 27, 2022, 05:08:37 AM
The sentence you quote makes no claims to knowledge. It certainly asserts qualities about those fleeing, but those are relatively simple and straightforward deductions that are likely to be true, IMHO.
Those fleeing conscription will not be 80 year olds on zimmer frames, for example.
They will also need to have resources to live in the country to which they flee, for however long, meaning that it is likely they are not going to be dirt-poor, either.

So, probably young(ish) and in reasonably good health and with reasonable amounts of financial backing, then.

The 'acquiescent' adjective arises from the fact that they're only fleeing now, when there are personal consequences for something they've previously not protested in bulk about.
I mentioned 'entitled', too, because it seems to me they were quite comfortable with their country annexing and invading other peoples' territory, right up until the point they were personally asked to pay the price. People who think they should get benefits for free I would describe as 'entitled'.

So you're wrong on all counts, I think.

They may not be that affluent: much easier to abandon your property in Russia when you don't have that much to abandon.
Also, Russia being Russia, affluent families would be better able to pull strings or pay outright bribes to immunize or at least extricate family members from mobilization.


Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Pohjolas Daughter

From a Time magazine article:

Although Russian state television has shown crowds of eager men lining up to enlist, the chaos of the mobilization order has also prompted rare criticism from pro-Kremlin figures. Some commentators have said that draft officers who call up the wrong people should be sent to the front to fight themselves.

Lord says this is part of a new effort by the Kremlin to pin blame on Russia's failure on Russia's Defense Ministry, with Deputy Minister Dmitry Bulgakov sacked last week. However, the issuing of draft papers to students, the infirm, and people with little combat experience, Lord adds, was likely a direct result of Kremlin quotas that local commissars were scrambling to fulfill.

Chechnya leader and staunch Putin ally Ramzan Kadyrov—who has prominently mobilized his people to volunteer for Russia in Ukraine—even felt it necessary to clarify that the mobilization order did not apply to his people, who he said had already fulfilled their quotas for fighting men.

Meanwhile, enlistment offices and other administrative buildings have been torched by Molotov cocktails since Putin's order. Independent media outlets noted at least 17 such incidents in recent days, reports the AP.

In the Siberian city of Ust-Ilimsk, one man walked into the enlistment office on Monday and shot the military commandant. Local media reports that the gunman was upset that his friend with no combat experience was drafted. On Sunday, a man set himself ablaze at a bus station in Ryazan, a city about 130 miles southeast of Moscow, shouting he didn't want to fight. He survived with minor injuries and was placed under arrest.


PD
Pohjolas Daughter

71 dB

Thank you Slovakia!  $:)
🇸🇰
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Madiel

It's fascinating having absolutelybaching tell multiple people how they misread and misunderstood. I suspect we all read just fine and are being blamed for the author's miswriting and misthinking.

Heck, when I'm in persistent agreement with Todd, something is clearly going on.
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Madiel

Quote from: 71 dB on September 27, 2022, 11:09:41 AM
Thank you Slovakia!  $:)
🇸🇰

Not many to go. I realise that Türkiye might be the tricky one.
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premont

As for the discussion of whether the young Russian men should stay in Russia, I note that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, as late as yesterday, urged them to flee the country.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

drogulus


     The European Union's Frontex border control agency said 66,000 Russians have entered the EU in the past week, according to DW, the German news service.

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 27, 2022, 01:49:25 PM
As for the discussion of whether the young Russian men should stay in Russia, I note that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, as late as yesterday, urged them to flee the country.

     If I was the Uke tator I'd urge Russians to leave and Russia to stop them.
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Madiel

Quote from: (: premont :) on September 27, 2022, 01:49:25 PM
As for the discussion of whether the young Russian men should stay in Russia, I note that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, as late as yesterday, urged them to flee the country.

Good to know.
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LKB

As expected:

" Russia claims win in occupied Ukraine 'sham' referendums "

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63052207

Putin may announce annexation as soon as Friday, when he's scheduled to address the Duma.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

71 dB

Quote from: Madiel on September 27, 2022, 01:29:00 PM
Not many to go. I realise that Türkiye might be the tricky one.

Not many. Two of the least democratic and most authoritarian NATO countries.  :-\
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

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LKB

Quote from: 71 dB on September 27, 2022, 02:42:32 PM
Not many. Two of the least democratic and most authoritarian NATO countries.  :-\

Between the sham referendums in Ukraine and the presumed imminent annexation of those regions, l expect Edrogan to take advantage with some sort of squeeze play, to counteract his reduced influence with Putin. Perhaps he'll demand further concessions from both candidates.

Hopefully I'm wrong - Sweden and Finland deserve better - but Edrogan isn't interested in being a good ally.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

drogulus

Quote from: MusicTurner on September 27, 2022, 05:16:42 AM
The sudden, major leakages in both Russo-German Nord Stream pipes in the Baltic Sea are definitely the result of sabotage undersea, and experts here are discussing a lot, who the perpetrator is; a bit surprisingly perhaps, some are pointing to Russian intelligence, and not the US; Biden has actually warned, that the US could do such a thing. Given our NATO membership history, it's highly unlikely that the US would be called a suspect from Danish officials, or that a first inquiry would make such a conclusion ... but Russia will have some advantages from the leakages too, now that the gas export via the pipes went down a lot already - such as trying to facilitate anti-war feelings among the German public this winter, or using it for a generally escalated rhetoric.

The leakages will also cause environmental problems.

     My guess is the Russians did it to amp up pressure on Germany. I'm thinking in terms of a big cat called the Leopard.

     

     So the Russians are reinforcing the message that they don'r want big fierce German cats anywhere near them. I think they are getting what they want. Germany won't send them.
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Que

Quote from: drogulus on September 27, 2022, 07:22:17 PM
     My guess is the Russians did it to amp up pressure on Germany. I'm thinking in terms of a big cat called the Leopard.

     So the Russians are reinforcing the message that they don'r want big fierce German cats anywhere near them. I think they are getting what they want. Germany won't send them.

I think you're right about Russia and its motives, but it could also backfire. Germany might feel the need to reassert itself and has now less to lose with the Nordstream pipelines out of the equation.

Cutting off dependency is a double edged sword, as Putin will find out.

Pohjolas Daughter

A couple of stories that I found to be of interest:  Turkish banks are halting Russia's Mir Payment System.  "More than half of Russia's population is estimated to have a Mir card, which Russia began developing in 2015 to bypass Western sanctions."  And guess who is fleeing to Turkey?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/09/28/all-turkish-banks-halt-russias-mir-payment-system-reports-a78916

There was another article that I read earlier (also in the Moscow Times) which I'm trying to locate.  Basically, it was detailing how certain countries' leaders were increasingly distancing themselves from Putin, becoming more critical of the war in Ukraine, leaving him waiting for them to show up at scheduled meetings (apparently Putin is famous for doing that); indications of changes in political dynamics going on...ah!  Found it:  "Central Asia Drifts Out of Russia's Orbit as Ukraine War Rages"  How much has the balance of power and influence shifted and Russia's influence in the area declined?  Interesting to read about and contemplate....

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/09/24/central-asia-drifts-out-of-russias-orbit-as-ukraine-war-rages-a78842

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Madiel

#3457
Quote from: absolutelybaching on September 27, 2022, 07:57:52 PM
"Misthinking"?!

Sounds positively Orwellian... and, not for the first time, a demonstration of an inability or an unwillingness to discuss any of the substantive points I've made at length over the past several posts. Instead, you seem only able to resort either to personal critique or, now, charges of "misthinking".

If that's how you handle rational debate, go knock yourself out, but I shall pass.

I've discussed the substantive point extensively. The fact that I don't agree with your values in asking ordinary Russians to put themselves at risk does not mean I haven't discussed the point. The issue now is that you repeatedly claim to not to have said the things that people have read you saying, after people have indicated they found those views repugnant.

If you didn't articulate your actual views clearly, or wish to modify them, fine. But instead your approach is to claim that you didn't articulate those views that people are ascribing to you. Which might work when only one person is ascribing those views, but when several different people all got the same thing out of your posts, the issue is not others misunderstanding you, the issue is you apparently not understanding what you expressed, or the implications of what you expressed.
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Madiel

Quote from: absolutelybaching on September 28, 2022, 03:57:33 AM
I'm not responsible for other people being incapable of reading the actual words I typed.

I reiterate the point: this might be a reasonable claim when one other person derives a meaning from what you typed. It is a far less reasonable claim when multiple people are all deriving the same meaning from what you typed.

In one instance where you claimed not to have said something, a quote was helpfully provided to prove that you really did say it.
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Madiel

#3459
Quote from: absolutelybaching on September 28, 2022, 03:57:33 AM
My view remains that I am not in favour of Russian draft-dodgers conveniently avoiding the consequences of their own prior political acquiescence.

My view remains that you have not shown any evidence of "political acquiescence". You seem to think that anyone who has failed to already be jailed or to have otherwise appeared in your news feeds as anti-war ought to be taken to have accepted the war and thought it was okay. Which is illogical. It's the fallacy of the undistributed middle. It's fallacious to conclude that the only means of being unsupportive of the war is to have done something that would have got your attention before now.
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