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Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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(: premont :)

Quote from: Florestan on November 24, 2022, 12:36:16 PMI raised no objection. I just asked two questions --- which you declined to answer.  :)

Read between the lines.
As soon as a word has left the lips, not even the fastest horse can catch up with it.

Todd

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 24, 2022, 12:43:00 PMI suppose sexism is the tendency to point to - or ven invent - different characteristics of the sexes. But some of these different characteristics may have positive implications.

This is questionable as well, particularly if you invent some traits that somehow translate into supposedly preferable policy choices if certain impossible conditions are met.  Basically, you are putting women on a pedestal, which is a grievous mistake.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

The dollar is our currency, but it's your problem - US Treasury Secretary John Connally to European Finance Ministers, 1971

Madiel

Quote from: Florestan on November 24, 2022, 12:29:41 PMYou wrote "where the women in that photo come from". You didn't specify "culturally". Geographically speaking, they are all in close proximity with Russia --- and Estonia and Finland are not even part of Scandinavia, which technically speaking means only Norway and Sweden.

Actually, we do have more in common with the culture of the Ottoman Empire (which in its own way and region was just as cosmopolitan as the Austrian Empire and in some respects even more) than with the culture of Scandinavia --- and I regard it as a positive thing.  :)

I edited to Nordic countries to get past the different meaning of "Scandinavia" in different languages.

But whatever, you're clearly in one of THOSE moods and the conversation is unproductive.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

k a rl h e nn i ng

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on November 24, 2022, 05:38:43 PMI edited to Nordic countries to get past the different meaning of "Scandinavia" in different languages.

But whatever, you're clearly in one of THOSE moods and the conversation is unproductive.

I missed your edit, it was getting late in Eflak and I went to sleep. :)

Of course there are enormous cultural differences between Russia  and the Nordic countries but that wasn't the issue. The issue was the suggestion that if you put women in power instead of men the world would be more peaceful and less violent. I disagree but let's not derail the thread.
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Florestan on November 24, 2022, 11:39:06 AMI should have thought that when it comes to history, "can be" equals "is" (as in, Elisabeth I can be as ruthless as Henry VIII), but nevertheless I'll reformulate it : history, ever since it began to be recorded up until nowadays, has been full of women who were just as violent, ruthless and bellicose as men.

Can't disagree with that: I present Catherine the Great as an example.  Women may be more thoughtful in the application of brutality but that is not indicative of the reserve of it they would happily bring to bear once the decision is made.

 8)
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Todd

Quote from: Secretary of State Hillary ClintonWe came, we saw, he died.

The he being Mr Gaddafi. 

Women are quite capable of bloodlust and viciousness on par with men.  The women selected for the cynical photo-op regarding sanctions all have one thing in common: they are personages in power in ineffectual entities.  Put women in charge of great powers, with their scope and reach and proclivity for relying on militarism to resolve conflict, and missiles will fly.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

The dollar is our currency, but it's your problem - US Treasury Secretary John Connally to European Finance Ministers, 1971

Todd

A timely article from BBC on this topic (I believe this may be a case of "intersectionality", to use academic terminology): Ukraine war: Merkel says she lacked power to influence Putin

Merkel was head of a powerful country.  This just demonstrates the silliness of the photo-op.

Der Spiegel has the full published interview with Ms Merkel.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

The dollar is our currency, but it's your problem - US Treasury Secretary John Connally to European Finance Ministers, 1971

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 25, 2022, 06:04:20 AMPut women in charge of great powers, with their scope and reach and proclivity for relying on militarism to resolve conflict, and missiles will fly.

This.
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

(: premont :)

Quote from: Todd on November 25, 2022, 06:04:20 AMPut women in charge of great powers, with their scope and reach and proclivity for relying on militarism to resolve conflict, and missiles will fly.

Sexism .. or not?
As soon as a word has left the lips, not even the fastest horse can catch up with it.

k a rl h e nn i ng

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Todd

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 25, 2022, 10:30:15 AMSexism .. or not?

No.  It illustrates that there would be no appreciable difference between the sexes.  Women are neither more warlike nor less warlike than men.  When they lead great powers, they must work within the same systems, face the same institutional inertia, have the same policy options at their disposal, face the same political environment, and so on.  Relying on the great (wo)man theory of history to proclaim this or that individual leader will have monumental influence of the course of events and the actions of powerful states certainly has attractions, but in the modern nation state it is inaccurate.  It is debatable how accurate such an approach has ever been.

Of course, had you read the two sentences preceding your quote, that would have been obvious.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

The dollar is our currency, but it's your problem - US Treasury Secretary John Connally to European Finance Ministers, 1971

Florestan

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 25, 2022, 10:30:15 AMSexism .. or not?


Rather historical realism.

Look, I have my own quarrels with Todd and I am in disagreement with him on lots of issues --- but in this respect he is spot on. I mean, guys, face it honestly: Madeleine Albright, Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton were at least as hawkish as Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell or George W. Bush, Jr. Compared to all of them, Trump was a sissy.

Instead of wishfully thinking that women would use great power in peaceful and non-violent ways, I wishfully think that great power be reduced to impotence, so that irrespective of the sex of any given leader, they be not able to wreak havoc even if they wanted to.

And this is going to be my last post on this specific issue.
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

Gurn Blanston

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Madiel

An alternative view is that heterosexual men do all SORTS of weird things when faced with a woman. You seem to get terribly distracted.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

SimonNZ

Quote from: Florestan on November 24, 2022, 10:59:05 AMYes it does: an old, unattractive lady (EU) stands among three sexy babes...  ;D

I cringe at all discussion of the attractiveness of women in power. But that post compels me to ask: by what shallow definition could Ursula van der Leyen possibly be deemed unattractive?

Herman


Madiel

Putin with his shirt off does nothing for me. Just saying.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on November 25, 2022, 01:11:59 PMAn alternative view is that heterosexual men do all SORTS of weird things when faced with a woman. You seem to get terribly distracted.

This might explain why the two Greats, Alexander and Frederick, were so succesful in their military exploits: they didn't get distracted. But then again there is that other guy, Napoleon.  :)
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

LKB

As far as I'm concerned, Ursula van der Leyen could get it.  >:D

Women in power are neither more nor less venal, greedy, devious or inspiring than men. The only significant difference l can think of would be the greater possibility of a male in power underestimating his female opponent. But that is a perceptual aspect, and not connected to any objective reality.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...