Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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drogulus

Quote from: 71 dB on December 19, 2022, 03:50:56 AMThanks for your acceptance and understanding Herman!

    You'll be OK. Finland is getting F-35s and they will even build part of the planes.

The industrial participation solution will enable the nation to develop credible expertise in the domestic industry from the security of supply perspective and will play an important role in the national economy. The most important industrial participation projects include large-scale production of the F-35 front fuselage in Finland also for other users, production of structural components as well as equipment testing and maintenance capability. Finland was also offered a project of the final assembly of engines for the Finnish Air Force aircraft.

    Y'see! Finland will be building for other users, not only their own airforce. They aren't just paying, they'll get paid to acquire an enhanced industrial base to sell to other Europeans and beyond the infinite!

    OK not infinite but big, especially for a microscopic country.
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71 dB

Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2022, 08:38:44 AMYou'll be OK. Finland is getting F-35s and they will even build part of the planes.

The industrial participation solution will enable the nation to develop credible expertise in the domestic industry from the security of supply perspective and will play an important role in the national economy. The most important industrial participation projects include large-scale production of the F-35 front fuselage in Finland also for other users, production of structural components as well as equipment testing and maintenance capability. Finland was also offered a project of the final assembly of engines for the Finnish Air Force aircraft.

    Y'see! Finland will be building for other users, not only their own airforce. They aren't just paying, they'll get paid to acquire an enhanced industrial base to sell to other Europeans and beyond the infinite!

    OK not infinite but big, especially for a microscopic country.

I wonder what source you are quoting. Sounds like a sales pitch which may turn out rosy compared to the reality. Remains to be seen.

Finland is a small country, not microscopic. Liechtenstein is a microscopic country. Our population is "only" 5.6 million, but Finland's impact in the World is bigger than that and if we compare the area of countries, we see that Finland has

- 40 % bigger area than the UK
- 12 % bigger area than Italy
- 95 % of the area of Germany
- 90 % of the area of Japan
- 67 % of the area of Spain
- 53 % of the area of France

This may come as a surprise to many but Finland is the most successful country in Olympic games history based on the population size and the number of Olympic medals won (101 gold medals won in 25 summer games).

Many people all over the World are using or have used Finnish inventions and products, often without knowing it: Fiskars scissors, Nokia phones, Linux, Angry Birds, Marimekko,.. ...Genelec speakers are widely used in studios everywhere (because they are the best out there).

- The first graphical user interface internet browser was coded in Finland (Erwise, 1992)
- Prof. Teuvo Kohonen developed Self-Organizing Maps (SOMs) in the 80's
- The first ever GMS call was made in Helsinki Finland in July 1, 1991.
- IRC chat protocol was created in Finland.
- SMS text messaging was created in Finland.
- heart rate monitor was invented in Finland.
- Reflectors were invented in Finland
- Xylitol was invented in Finland

Princess Leia wears Finnish design on her neck during the end ceremony of Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope. The necklace named "Planetoid Valleys" is designed by Björn Weckström. George Lucas called Weckström in mid 70's and insisted having the necklace in the movie.

In the world of classical music Finland has impressively many world class conductors and in the world of metal music Finland is considered the mecca.

As for military Finland has one of the strongest militaries in Europe and one of the biggest artilleries in the World (7 times bigger than Germany for example).

So, excuse me if I'm offended about my country being called microscopic. We Finns are perhaps modest people, but not THAT modest! Finland is a relatively mighty country with a modest population of 5.56 million. Our problem is we are right next to a non-democratic country of almost 150 million people and very strong military that has become openly a terror state that gives the finger to even the well-being of their own citizens.

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drogulus

Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2022, 01:46:40 PMAs for military Finland has one of the strongest militaries in Europe and one of the biggest artilleries in the World (7 times bigger than Germany for example).

So, excuse me if I'm offended about my country being called microscopic.


    Let's say it punches waay above its weight, the point of my, er, provocation.

    Peace and blessing be upon Finland and its new allies Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney.

    When I was a mere lad I dreamed one day of flying on the Connie. I never did.

   
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Madiel

Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2022, 01:46:40 PMSo, excuse me if I'm offended about my country being called microscopic.

I agree that that was an entirely inappropriate term.
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drogulus

    I didn't get where I am today by being appropriate.

    Finnish noir is most excellent.

   
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71 dB

Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2022, 06:41:34 PMFinnish noir is most excellent.

   

Interesting to hear you know Finnish noir, but then again Nordic noir in general has been popular in the resent years. I am not a fan of that genre myself. Too cynical and stylistically serious for my liking, but no harm done if you enjoy Finnish noir.  ;)
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Herman

#4306
Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2022, 04:00:46 PMLet's say it punches waay above its weight, the point of my, er, provocation.


Well and let me say that your disparaging comments on Finland and its size etc were typical examples of the Ugly American rearing his head.

Do you perhaps understand that Finland shares a long border with Russia, and as a consequence the Finns do not have the luxury of the American Toddlers (pun intended) to be only indifferent to what's going on in Ukraine.

I'd add to the list of Finland's accomplishments its eductational system which should be the world's model.

71 dB

Quote from: Herman on December 20, 2022, 11:40:29 PMI'd add to the list of Finland's accomplishments its educational system which should be the world's model.

Senator Bernie Sanders thinks there are a few things the US could learn from Finland, but then again he is a crazy communist who wants to make the US into Venezuela were people eat rats...  :D

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Todd

People can and do justify nationalism and militarism in a variety of ways.  Sometimes it is deemed good by some people.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

Time's Puppet of the Year is scheduled to speak in person before the US Congress today.  Odd that Zelensky did not choose to give a speech in person to the European Parliament.  I wonder why that might be.  Brussels is much closer to Ukraine than Washington, after all.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Fëanor

Quote from: drogulus on December 20, 2022, 04:00:46 PMWhen I was a mere lad I dreamed one day of flying on the Connie. I never did.

   

I did.  I was kid too of course.  I can't remember on which trip we took the Lockheed Super Constellation.  I don't recalled that the experience was much different than for the Douglas DC-6 we flew in the same era, but the "Connie" was certainly a gorgeous looking airplane.


drogulus

Quote from: Herman on December 20, 2022, 11:40:29 PMWell and let me say that your disparaging comments on Finland and its size etc were typical examples of the Ugly American rearing his head.

Do you perhaps understand that Finland shares a long border with Russia, and as a consequence the Finns do not have the luxury of the American Toddlers (pun intended) to be only indifferent to what's going on in Ukraine.

I'd add to the list of Finland's accomplishments its eductational system which should be the world's model.

     I sing the praises of Finland frequently. I excuse your remark on the grounds that you have no familiarity with my expressed beliefs here. As for 71dB, he's upset about the state of the world and not inclined to appreciate inappropriate humor.

      In the past few months I've remarked on the Finnish border with Russia and the point of my "please don't invade" riff is that the denuded Russian defenses in Karelia mean that Finland actually could. Further, one should be able to see that if Russia was defended by Finnish membership in NATO, that threat would be removed. Finland would have (heh!) surrendered its sovereignty to wage war and recapture territory now occupied by Russia. Needless to say, so I'll say it, that is a good thing for all concerned, and giving up the right to settle old territorial scores is fundamental to the nature of the alliance.

     I do claim membership in the American Uglies in some respects. The appeal of "soccer" is microscopic to me.

   

   
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drogulus

Quote from: Fëanor on December 21, 2022, 05:41:53 AMI did.  I was kid too of course.  I can't remember on which trip we took the Lockheed Super Constellation.  I don't recalled that the experience was much different than for the Douglas DC-6 we flew in the same era, but the "Connie" was certainly a gorgeous looking airplane.



     The Boeing 707 changed the world back then.

     Finland is not buying the Swedish fighter. Now we know it's not just a matter of buying a superior plane. The technological and economic advances are important factors.
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Que

#4313
Wow.... In Putin's rethoric, Ukraine just went from "fake nation" to "brotherly nation"...

Ukraine war: Russia not to blame for conflict - Putin (BBC)

It smells like desperation... I guess Putin has finally realised that: 1) he cannot win this war and 2) loosing this war will be be his end.

Todd

Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 07:48:13 AMIt smells like desperation... I guess Putin has finally realised that: 1) he cannot win this war and 2) loosing this war will be be his end.

It could be those things, or it could be Putin adopting a different tone as a precursor to negotiations.  He did just negotiate the release of an American, so it's a thing now.

Since Ukraine is warning of another large-scale Russian military operation, triumphalism should be avoided.  Such thinking has been wrong the entire war thus far.  And all the while, Ukrainians die.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Que

#4315
Quote from: Todd on December 21, 2022, 08:16:35 AMIt could be those things, or it could be Putin adopting a different tone as a precursor to negotiations.  He did just negotiate the release of an American, so it's a thing now.

Yes, for the 1st time since this war started I think Putin is moving towards the possibility of a negotiated settlement. But only because he is loosing, or at least has no prospect anymore of winning... Thanks to Joe Biden and Vladimir Zelensky, and the endurance of the Ukrainians.

QuoteSince Ukraine is warning of another large-scale Russian military operation, triumphalism should be avoided.  Such thinking has been wrong the entire war thus far.  And all the while, Ukrainians die.

Triumphalism should be indeed be avoided, even if I think the Ukrainians have some tricks up their sleeve before Putin is "ready" for a renewed assault.

Ukrainians die, and so do Russians. But this war cannot end until the future of the Ukrainian nation and enduring peace in Europe is secured.

Todd

#4316
Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 09:19:50 AMYes, for the 1st time since this war started I think Putin is moving towards the possibility of a negotiated settlement.

This is historically false.  Multiple rounds of talks have occurred. In April, serious negotiations were underway.  They were scuttled.  Some say the West did it; some say Russia did it.


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 09:19:50 AMBut only because he is loosing, or at least has no prospect anymore of winning... Thanks to Joe Biden and Vladimir Zelensky, and the endurance of the Ukrainians.

Winning and losing have never been defined.  Part of a bold Ukrainian ask is to return to pre-2014 borders.  That is a very low probability outcome.  It is an opening bid, of course.

It is indeed true that the American war machine, underwritten by US taxpayers, has propped up a regime that would have lost months ago.  As a direct result, many civilians have needlessly died.


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 09:19:50 AMTriumphalism should be indeed be avoided, even if I think the Ukrainians have some tricks up their sleeve before Putin is "ready" for a renewed assault.

This is wishful thinking.  It should also be avoided.  It has appeared many, many times in this thread. 


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 09:19:50 AMUkrainians die, and so do Russians. But this war cannot end until the future of the Ukrainian nation and enduring peace in Europe is secured.

A material difference between the deaths on the two sides is that many Ukrainian civilians have died.  People who support keeping the war going actively support policies that lead to the deaths of innocent civilians.  That is immoral.

As to Europe being secure, NATO members are protected by the US.  European countries have thus far offered tough rhetoric, but that is all.  European leaders wish to maintain their dependence on the US.  It is disgraceful. 

Also, given Europe's dependence on the US not only for military security, and financial safeguards (eg, central bank guarantees go only one way in practice), but also increasingly for energy, it may be a little premature to say that Europe will end up better off and more secure at the end of this war than before it.  Europe will be even more dependent on the US, and since any transition to renewable energy is at least three to four decades out, and even then certain forms of fossil fuels will still be required, Europe is exposing itself to increased coercion by the US.  It will be friendlier arm twisting than what the Russians offer, but it will benefit the US even more.  Not all US politicians hold Europe in very high regard, and some of them will ascend to positions of national power this decade or next. 

It will be instructive to see how Germans respond to the outcome of the war.  This year has seen significant reported declines in all industrial sectors.  Proclamations of German deindustrialization are a bit florid, but they do point to larger issues for Germany.  So far, Germans have displayed enormous patience, but if their relative well-being declines, there may be increased calls for certain forms of industrial policy at best, and aggressive mercantilism at worst.  If either occurs, it would be entirely understandable and even justifiable.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Que

#4317
Quote from: Todd on December 21, 2022, 10:02:53 AMThis is historically false.  Multiple rounds of talks have occurred. In April, serious negotiations were underway.  They were scuttled.  Some say the West did it; some say Russia did it.

Fake news. Putin wasn't seriously considering negotiations ever before, he simply had no reason to do so.

QuoteWinning and losing have never been defined.

Putin himself has defined, and redefined, "winning" many times over.

QuoteThis is wishful thinking.  It should also be avoided.  It has appeared many, many times in this thread.

Sofar believing in the importance,  and the ability, of Ukraine to defend itself and of western democracies to unite in its support has proven to be justified. Writing off Ukraine has not.


QuoteA material difference between the deaths on the two sides is that many Ukrainian civilians have died.  People who support keeping the war going actively support policies that lead to the deaths of innocent civilians.  That is immoral.

Another material difference is that Ukrainians are defending their country. People who defend their country do not choose to die, they choose to defend their country. Supporting them in exercising their right of self defense is not immoral. The regime that has made the immoral choice to send tens of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians to their deaths, is Putin's.

QuoteEuropean countries have thus far offered tough rhetoric, but that is all.

Factually incorrect.

Todd

Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 10:47:54 AMFake news. Putin wasn't seriously considering negotiations ever before, he simply had no reason to do so.

This is incorrect.


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 10:47:54 AMPutin himself has defined, and redefined, "winning" many times over.

I am more interested in the West's definition of winning.  That can then help establish a baseline for negotiations.


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 10:47:54 AMSofar believing in the importance,  and the ability, of Ukraine to defend itself and of western democracies to unite in its support has proven to be justified.

It has not.


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 10:47:54 AMSupporting them in exercising their right of self defense is not immoral.


It is.  It is essential to remember that NATO expansion established the conditions for Russian aggression.  Claims that the West has no culpability in this calamity are false.  To then continue to send weapons and aid to prolong a war that has cost thousands of civilian lives, all without actively pursuing a diplomatic settlement at the same time, is intrinsically immoral.


Quote from: Que on December 21, 2022, 10:47:54 AMFactually incorrect.

It is correct.  For instance, Germany surprised many people when it announced it would spend $100 billion on defense, garnering many headlines, but first it was part of a previously announced plan, rendering the promise an exercise in cynicism and opportunism, and second, the German government has begun to temper its prior claims.  Other governments have made promises to up defense expenditures to meet 2% of targets, but it is not clear it will happen (I expect fewer than half of the countries that have pledged to do so actually will).  European governments have sent many weapons systems, though not always what was requested, and not in a coordinated manner.  US military and financial support dwarfs all others.  Given that this war is supposedly an existential threat to Europe, Europeans should be funneling hundreds of billions in aid, should be taking the lead in pushing for negotiations, and should be taking the lead in forming a multi-trillion Euro reconstruction plan right now.  You previously cited the Wikipedia page on the topic of aid in this war, yet you did not include the assessment by the Kiel Institute, which serves as the basis for that page, that Europe is significantly underperforming in this regard.  European states should be doing everything short of full mobilization to resolve this crisis if it is actually as serious as you assert.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

Sayeth Time's Puppet of the Year: Your money is not charity, it's an investment in global security

One corrupt man's "investment in global security" is another man's continued expansion of the military-industrial complex.

Maybe the puppet can swing by Brussels on his way home.  You know, hit the real power center in this whole mess.

It was nice of Zelensky to quote Phil Collins.  Classy.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya