Europe at War

[drogulus]

    I support Russians and Belos changing their regimes to promote peace, which is what most of them want. All good warmongers should want that. Even Miss Universe wants world peace, and if it's good enough for her I'm on board.

    As for RAND, you want them to game all the options. Calling them objectives distorts their meaning. But that's entirely consistent with my previous insight that knowing anything about the evil consequences of war makes you an advocate for evil consequences. Only ignorance can be an excuse on this view.

    Stay Dum. Learn nothing. Don't Study War No More.

    My advice is learn as much as you can, or at least can take. I can't wargame like Rand, but the wargaming I do gives me considerably more insight into the situation in the South China Sea than I would have with the "study no more" path. Knowledge doesn't taint you, it just leaves you less vulnerable to trollish manipulators.

[JBS]

It is a list of published policy options that helped create the conditions for the Russo-Ukrainian War.  More than 40,000 civilians have died in the war.  Many or most people would consider that bad.  Evidently you do not.  That's fine. 

You also support regime change now.  So, you are an admitted cultural chauvinist, think nothing of dead civilians, and favor regime change.  You are a warmonger. 

Almost all of those things were either not actually done, or done only after Ukraine was invaded. So it's better to say that 40k Ukrainians died because we didn't do warmonger type of things.

[Todd]

Almost all of those things were either not actually done, or done only after Ukraine was invaded. So it's better to say that 40k Ukrainians died because we didn't do warmonger type of things.

No, all six items I listed were continuously pursued or implemented before February 2022.  All can be verified online.  That's why they were selected from the longer, broader list, which I suspect you did not read.  Ukrainian civilians are dying as a direct result of US policy.

I am somewhat surprised that you endorse Trump's withdrawal from the INF Treaty and the Open Skies Treaty.  Or are you suggesting those things did not happen?

Also, since you have now come out in favor of regime change, should any other regimes be changed to meet US preferences?

[JBS]

No, all six items I listed were continuously pursued or implemented before February 2022.  All can be verified online.  That's why they were selected from the longer, broader list, which I suspect you did not read.  Ukrainian civilians are dying as a direct result of US policy.

I am somewhat surprised that you endorse Trump's withdrawal from the INF Treaty.  Or are you suggesting that did not happen?

Also, since you have now come out in favor of regime change, should any other regimes be changed to meet US preferences?

Ukrainians are dying because Putin chose to make war on Ukraine.  Those who try to blame those deaths on US policy are merely helping make sure even more Ukrainians die.

I am all in favor of Iranians, Belusrussians, Russians, Venezuelans, Syrians, and several other peoples getting rid of the dictatorships that currently rule over them.  The fact that this is good for US does not mean it is bad for them.

[Todd]

Ukrainians are dying because Putin chose to make war on Ukraine.

And Putin chose to invade Ukraine because the US established the conditions that led to Russian hostilities. 

Those who try to blame those deaths on US policy are merely helping make sure even more Ukrainians die.

Some perhaps, but others, like me, believe the US should immediately cease support for Ukraine and publicly push for a political settlement.  Had such a policy been pursued early on, tens of thousands of innocent people would not have died.  And had the US heeded Russian warnings starting in the 90s, war could have been avoided altogether, all the way back in 2014.  Really, your assertion is false on its face. 

I am all in favor of Iranians, Belusrussians, Russians, Venezuelans, Syrians, and several other peoples getting rid of the dictatorships that currently rule over them.

How will such changes occur?

I notice also that you did not address the factual existence of the six items I mentioned, and you did not clarify whether you support Trump's actions, or if you even believe they happened.  Based on your last post on the topic, I must conclude that you believe they did not happen. 

[LKB]

And Putin chose to invade Ukraine because the US established the conditions that led to Russian hostilities. 


Some perhaps, but others, like me, believe the US should immediately cease support for Ukraine and publicly push for a political settlement.  Had such a policy been pursued early on, tens of thousands of innocent people would not have died.  And had the US heeded Russian warnings starting in the 90s, war could have been avoided altogether, all the way back in 2014.  Really, your assertion is false on its face. 


How will such changes occur?

I notice also that you did not address the factual existence of the six items I mentioned, and you did not clarify whether you support Trump's actions, or if you even believe they happened.  Based on your last post on the topic, I must conclude that you believe they did not happen. 

You yourself are known for ( among other things ) ignoring arguments you don't care to address. That being the case, attempting to call someone out because they don't respond to every single point you raise merely confirms your own trollishness.

Not to mention the following straight up lie:

" Ukrainian civilians are dying as a direct result of US policy. "

In any case, after explicitly stating your indifference to Ukraine existing in slavery, you don't then get to turn around and confront others for holding positions which ( in your questionable opinion ) supposedly extend Ukrainian suffering.

[Madiel]

Todd continues to insist that Ukrainians have no will of their own, I see.

Whereas he, of course, is a thinking human being rather than a mindless puppet of larger forces. 

[Que]

Here's a bloodthirsty report, as it contains war facts and analysis. Consider this a trigger warning.

The new tanks will be arriving too late for Putin's possible "anniversary offensive" - that would be the whole point of the timing. All the more important, not mentioned in the clip, that Poland has also promised more (upgraded) Soviet era tanks. Those can be put to use right away. I hope the European allies also part with some of their remaing  stock of MIG's.

[Florestan]

Transnistria (a Russian-occupied enclave within Moldova)

This is geographically incorrect. Transnistria is not an enclave within Moldova but a long and narrow strip of land squeezed between Moldova and Ukraine. Truth be told, it has never been part of the Principality of Moldova, whose easternmost border was precisely the Dniester River.

Anyway, they have a very interesting flag.



and in front of their "parliament" lies this statue:



Actually, they are a kind of Liechtenstein: they too are the last remnant of an extinct empire. 

[Madiel]

This is geographically incorrect. Transnistria is not an enclave within Moldova but a long and narrow strip of land squeezed between Moldova and Ukraine. Truth be told, it has never been part of the Principality of Moldova, whose easternmost border was precisely the Dniester River.

Anyway, they have a very interesting flag.



and in front of their "parliament" lies this statue:



Actually, they are a kind of Liechtenstein: they too are the last remnant of an extinct empire. 

It's a weird beast. I was just looking up a bit of the history. When it was the Moldavian ASSR, in the 1920s and 30s and before the Soviet Union controlled the rest of what became Moldova, it was a subunit within Ukraine and the population had more ethnic Ukrainians than it did Moldavians. When the rest of Moldova was grabbed, some of the more Ukrainian bits were kept in Ukraine. But the Wikipedia article hints that the reason for the Soviets shifting the boundaries might also have been to strengthen the hold on Moldova.

I know Europe is full of spots where linguistic, religious, cultural and political boundaries don't line up neatly, but there's always someone who can't leave these things alone. Currently Putin at the head of the list.

[Todd]

That being the case, attempting to call someone out because they don't respond to every single point you raise merely confirms your own trollishness.

Incorrect.  Unilateral withdrawal from two nuclear arms control treaties is the very definition of substantive, and JBS believes the US did not withdraw from the treaties.  The other five items listed from the RAND document are all policies that have been pursued for years.  JBS was unable to address the specific points at all.

Note that use of the word "trollishness" is exactly equivalent to proclamations of being un-American, a Putin apologist, and the like.  It is mindless.

Not to mention the following straight up lie:

" Ukrainian civilians are dying as a direct result of US policy. "

Incorrect.  Ukrainians are dying as the direct result of US policy.

In any case, after explicitly stating your indifference to Ukraine existing in slavery, you don't then get to turn around and confront others for holding positions which ( in your questionable opinion ) supposedly extend Ukrainian suffering.

My views on foreign policy are amoral.  Almost every other person on this forum moralizes constantly, even or especially about foreign policy.  I am pointing out the immorality of positions of people like you.

[Todd]

This is geographically incorrect. Transnistria is not an enclave within Moldova but a long and narrow strip of land squeezed between Moldova and Ukraine.

This appears to be fabricated.  Per the UN, no countries recognize Transnistria.  To cite merely one NGO, Human Rights Watch considers it as part of its analysis of Moldova. 

International organizations and the RAND Corporation are more trustworthy sources in this instance.

[Florestan]

This appears to be fabricated.

I don't know what "this" refers to. Geographically speaking, Transistria is not an enclave within Moldova but a long and narrow strip of land between Moldova and Ukraine. Politically speaking, it's a Russian-backed separatist province of the Republic of Moldova.

[Todd]

I don't know what "this" refers to.

Your post stating that Transnistria is not within Moldova.  Per the world, it is.

[Florestan]

Your post stating that Transnistria is not within Moldova

I stated no such thing. I stated "Transnistria is not an enclave within Moldova" which is absolutely correct from the specifically geographic point of view I posted. San Marino, Campione d"Italia or Lesotho are enclaves; Transnistria is not. If you want to nitpick on that, be my guest, but before wasting your time be advised I'm not going to waste mine.

[Todd]

Transnistria is not an enclave within Moldova

Transnistria is part of Moldova.  That is what is known as a fact.

[Todd]

Back to the war, and specifically the mystery surrounding Nord Stream, here's a hot take from wannabe Viceroy Victoria Nuland:

[Madiel]

Today we learned that Todd can't even be bothered to learn or acknowledge what an enclave is.

Whether this is stubbornness, trolling or a purer form of stupidity, I leave to the reader.

[JBS]

Be it noted that the reason I didn't reply to Todd was solely due to the disgust caused by his attempts to blame the US for Putin's war, instead of acknowledging that the blame belongs to the man who started the war. A proper reply would be so full of obscenities that Que would be obliged to delete it simply to keep GMG from being listed as a porno site.

[Todd]

Be it noted that the reason I didn't reply to Todd was solely due to the disgust caused by his attempts to blame the US for Putin's war, instead of acknowledging that the blame belongs to the man who started the war. A proper reply would be so full of obscenities that Que would be obliged to delete it simply to keep GMG from being listed as a porno site.

Goodness. 

You explicitly denied that the US withdrew from the INF Treaty.  That's what you wrote.  Replies needn't be laden with obscenities.  That's a lie, nothing but a lie.  Perhaps you can pull yourself together.  Perhaps not.