Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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Todd

Back to the current war: U.S. declares Russia committed 'crimes against humanity' in Ukraine

Who knew?

I wonder if the Veep will confess publicly that the US committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in Raqqa or that she was personally complicit in a crime against humanity when seven children were partially liquified at an Afghan wedding. 

jk

International law, such as it is, is selectively and unjustly applied. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Someone stated today in this very thread that common morality and basic decency do not apply to great powers, especially nuclear ones. Now the very same someone takes a great nuclear power to task for not conforming to common morality and basic decency. Am I the only one to see the incongruity?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 06:17:51 AMSomeone stated today in this very thread that common morality and basic decency do not apply to great powers, especially nuclear ones. Now the very same someone takes a great nuclear power to task for not conforming to common morality and basic decency. Am I the only one to see the incongruity?

There is no incongruity.  You simply misunderstand.

I have written it before, but I will repeat it here in hopes of clearing up your confusion: my views on foreign policy are amoral.  I accept that all manner of unpleasantries occur on a daily basis in the world of international relations.  It's the way of the world, always has been, and always will be.  By way of contrast, every other poster on this board constantly moralizes. 

Political leaders in the West constantly moralize, yet some of those leaders engage in grossly immoral actions.  The hypocrisy and dishonesty entertain.  There is a distinct possibility that some Western leaders do not know or understand that the West engages in (sometimes grotesquely) immoral behavior.  That entertains even more.  The West does not hold the moral high ground.  Leaders really ought not to pretend that it does.  Followers, too.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

#5423
I mean, of course no great power cares a fig about morality and decency and all of them have committed, and will still commit, war crimes. What is strange, though, is singling out one such power as singularly bad in general and directly responsible in particular for the war in Ukraine, while presenting another one as just averagely bad and not directly responsible for the war in Ukraine. This double standard boggles the mind --- my mind, at least.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 06:35:34 AMThis double standard boggles the mind --- my mind, at least.

This also stems from your misunderstanding.  The US established the conditions that led to Russian aggression.  Russian and Ukrainian forces commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a recurring basis.  The US actively prolongs the conditions enabling this reality by providing aid to Ukraine.  This war is not a good guy/bad guy war.  It's a guy/guy or bad guy/bad guy war.  Since every other poster on this board is obsessed with Russia's supposedly unique badness, they can dwell on that.

In recent years, the US has also supported other somewhat unsavory groups.  The US sided with al-Qaeda in Syria.  It will not ease sanctions on Syria even in the face of a catastrophic disaster.  It props up Kagame.  It backs the TPLF in the deadliest war in the world, and one that gets no press coverage because white folks ain't dying.  It backs the Saudis in its proxy war in Yemen.  And those are just some of the highlights.  To be sure, Russia does bad things, too, it just has less reach.  I am far more concerned about what the US does because it costs me money and Americans may end up dying needlessly. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2023, 06:56:09 AMI am far more concerned about what the US does because it costs me money

I thought you were concerned about the hellish life of Ukrainians or about the Afghani children. Silly me.

You are as big a hypocrite as the US government; you just have less reach.



Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 07:09:19 AMI thought you were concerned about the hellish life of Ukrainians or about the Afghani children. Silly me.

You are as big a hypocrite as the US government; you just have less reach.

Three points.

First, I have a generalized concern about the dead and dying in far-away lands.  I also treat all non-Americans equally.  The white people dying in the supposedly free and democratic Ukraine are no more important than the dead and dying in Afghanistan, Yemen, Ethiopia, Sudan, Congo, Myanmar, etc, etc, etc.  I am much more concerned about events in Ohio.  I point out the horrific, grossly immoral conditions endured by innocent people in Ukraine and elsewhere to illustrate the outcomes of policies enthusiastically supported and righteously defended by the moralizing majority on this board. 

Second, you resorted to ad hominem as opposed to addressing any points.  That's fine.

Third, you broke your promise to never respond to me.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2023, 07:19:52 AMyou resorted to ad hominem

I did and I'm really sorry I did. I just couldn't resist.

Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2023, 07:19:52 AMyou broke your promise to never respond to me.

Ditto.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 07:23:33 AMI did and I'm really sorry I did. I just couldn't resist.

You have impulse control issues.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2023, 07:24:35 AMYou have impulse control issues.

Yes, I know. I really do sometimes. Strangely enough, it's an online issue only. In real life, on the contrary, I'm always on delay to strike back. I mean, by the moment a mordant reply comes to my mind the event which occasioned it has been long since gone (don't know if time concordance is correct but you get the idea, I hope).

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

If there's any consolation to you, @Todd, I do believe that no peace treaty can be signed unless Ukraine acquiesces to give up Crimea and Donbas for good. The next best alternative is a stalemate similar to the Korean peninsula one. The worst alternative... I don't even want to imagine it.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

#5432
Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2023, 07:54:28 AMI require no consolation.

Your sense of humor is slight, to say the least. And no, this is not an ad hominem. I know plenty of people like that, some of whom are close relatives.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 07:56:40 AMYour sense of humor is slight, to say the least.

Incorrect.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Herman

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 07:56:40 AMYour sense of humor is slight, to say the least. And no, this is not an ad hominem. I know plenty of people like that, some of whom are close relatives.

So how's the non-responding going?

Florestan

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Herman

I guess you're human... ;D

SimonNZ

Quote from: Todd on February 18, 2023, 07:19:52 AMSecond, you resorted to ad hominem as opposed to addressing any points.

Physician: heal thyself.

Que

#5438
Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 07:51:59 AMI do believe that no peace treaty can be signed unless Ukraine acquiesces to give up Crimea and Donbas for good.

I very much disagree. Perhaps Putin could have walked away with those spoils of war in the early months of the invasion, I'm pretty sure the Ukrainians were seriously considering it. But not any more - after the relentess ferocity of the Russian assault, the war crimes committed and other hardships endured by the Ukrainian civilian population.

To ensure a more enduring peace in Europe, Putin must come out of this empty handed.... The days of a face saving option are over. That said, Crimea might be subject to some compromise,  maybe...

Fëanor

#5439
Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2023, 07:51:59 AMIf there's any consolation to you, @Todd, I do believe that no peace treaty can be signed unless Ukraine acquiesces to give up Crimea and Donbas for good. The next best alternative is a stalemate similar to the Korean peninsula one. The worst alternative... I don't even want to imagine it.

I suspect that Putin would quietly see a treaty based on Ukraine giving up Donbas and Crimea as a defeat.  He main goal was and is to neutralize Ukraine, keeping it out of the EU and NATO and under Russia's thumb.  I say he would agree to such a treaty only if he were threatened by catastrophic military setbacks in Ukraine or some unforeseeable twist in his domestic situation.

Best hope for the peaceniks is to threaten imminent defeat in Donbas and southern Ukraine;  this would just might bring Putin scrambling to peace negotiations.  I agree with Rishi Sunak that NATO ought to pull out all the stops short of invading actual, legitimate Russian territory.