Europe at War

[Florestan]

Check out Democracy Now, Noam Chomsky, Katrina Vanden Heuvel

I've never heard about DN and I was only slightly aware of KVH. Otoh I've known the useful idiot NC for years.

Sorry, they are not representative for the Western left by any stretch of imagination. Karl is absolutely right:

Probably the wacky fringe of the US Left.

[ritter]

Well, in Spain at least the "new, radical" left (Unidas Podemos, which is the junior member in the government coalition, led by the Socialist Party), immediately brought up their opposition to NATO —of which Spain is a member— when halfheartedly condemning Putin's aggression. And, truth be said, prior to the invasion, their sympathy clearly lay more with Putin and his cronies than with the West. Other parties from which the government receives parliamentary support (namely, the leftist faction of the Catalan independentists, and the political heirs of the Basque terrorist groups) also tried to invoke some bizarre equidistance, i.e. "Putin bad, NATO just as bad". Fortunately , the Prime Minister —of whom I am no fan— has been very clear about his support of Ukraine, his condemnation of Putin's actions, and about Spain being firmly in the EU/NATO/West camp.

Spain has a long tradition of latent or overt anti-Americanism. On the right, because of the historical humiliation of the Spanish-American war in 1898, the trigger of which is seen as having been —actually, it was— a pure fabrication and a dishonest act. It gave what remained of the Spanish Empire (which had been in decline for centuries) its coup de grâce. But, of course, that Empire was doomed in any case.

On the left, America is seen as the source of all evils, and the reason that has prevented the whole of Europe from enjoying the delights of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Russia, the traditional "counterweight" to American hegemony in the 20th century, is still viewed with sympathy by this lot, even if the current kleptocratic regime in Russia is a perfect example of a system that displays all the excesses and defects of capitalism, and few of its benefits. It's as if they didn't realise that, compared to the current European Social-Democratic "standard", Putin is to the right of Attila the Hun.

All rather schizophrenic, I'm afraid...

But, TBH, the vast majority of the population seems to be appalled by Russia's aggression, has huge sympathy for the Ukrainian people (of which there's a good contingent living in Spain), and is clear that their allegiance lies with the West (even if we are aware we are a rather insignificant player in this horror that is unfolding).

[MusicTurner]

Germany now sending 500 stingers and 1000 anti-tank weapons, and France says it will follow too.

So new policies. But also likely that the invasion will become more brutal now.

[Todd]

Germany now sending 500 stingers and 1000 anti-tank weapons, and France says it will follow too.
So new policies. But likely that the invasion will become more brutal now.

Proxy war.  Very old policy.  Keeps the fighting over there. 

[Florestan]

Is Frans Timmermans in a position of significant influence that can sway not only Dutch but also broad European and American policy responses? 

I don't know but it's immaterial. He is living proof that "the Western left" is not an anti-NATO monolith.

what, pray tell, are the additional responses available to "The West" in this situation, save more severe sanctions, cyberwarfare, and regional destabilization?

Guns-and-tanks is the only language Putin speaks and understands.

Look, I'm not advocating for a NATO war against Russia. I want peace as much as you or any other GMGer. I'm just stating the obvious.

[drogulus]

     Katrina:

NATO expansion provided the context for this crisis—a fact often ignored by our media. There is rank irrationality and irresponsibility in offering future NATO membership to Ukraine—when successive US presidents and our NATO allies have demonstrated that they do not have slightest intention of fighting to defend Ukraine. Instead, Putin's demand that Ukraine remain outside of NATO—essentially that the status quo be codified—was scorned as violating NATO's "principle" of admitting anyone it wanted.

     NATO is not defending Ukraine because it's not in NATO. If the thesis is that NATO defense encourages aggression one only has to point out that Putin has validated Ukraine's fear that it needs strong allies. Weakness encourages aggressors. Strong alliances do no such thing.

     

[MusicTurner]

Swift sanctions also officially acknowledged by Germany now.

[Todd]

I don't know but it's immaterial. He is living proof that "the Western left" is not an anti-NATO monolith.

As far as I am aware, most national level US politicians are not anti-NATO.  Don't know and don't care about Euroticians.

Guns-and-tanks is the only language Putin speaks and understands.

He also understands bribery.

Look, I'm not advocating for a NATO war against Russia. I want peace as much as you or any other GMGer. I'm just stating the obvious.

There will be no Russia-NATO (meaning USA) war.  Ukraine is just not worth it. 

[drogulus]

      "Provides the context for this crisis" is a vaporous claim, applicable equally to Ukraines desire to join a powerful alliance and the fact that as a nonmember their vulnerability crated the "context" for Putin's war. See, he's got context!! Well, all right then.

[Gurn Blanston]

It's naive to think they're doing mental gymnastics or any other kind. They like Trump precisely because he relieves them of the responsibility of resolving contradictions or thinking critically. He gives a dispensation to indulge their worst impulses and to feel self-righteous about doing it. That's priceless to schmucks.

That was sarcasm, not naivete. 

[drogulus]

     I'll speculate that the Uke desire to join NATO exceeds NATOs desire to join the Ukes. It wouldn't shock me if many in the US and elsewhere hoped the can could be kicked down the road forever or a little longer. Don't make the bear angry!

     So, I blame the Ukes for this dastardly plot.

[MusicTurner]

     I'll speculate that the Uke desire to join NATO exceeds NATOs desire to join the Ukes. It wouldn't shock me if many in the US and elsewhere hoped the can could be kicked down the road forever or a little longer. Don't make the bear angry!

     So, I blame the Ukes for this dastardly plot.

It's just that the Russians need to be more charming. An evening school might work.

[bhodges]

Via VAN Magazine:

German conductor Ingo Metzmacher has canceled his engagements with the Russian National Orchestra and the New Opera Theatre Moscow. He was scheduled to conduct Salome in October/November.

--Bruce

[Florestan]

As far as I am aware, most national level US politicians are not anti-NATO.

Very good.

He also understands bribery.

Okay, then --- how much USD/EURO is he willing to take for his retiring from Ukraine?

There will be no Russia-NATO (meaning USA) war. 

I do hope so.

Ukraine is just not worth it.

It's not about Ukraine alone. It's about international law and about a people's freedom to choose their own way. Iow, about principles and morality. You might play the cynicist as much as you want --- just don't you ever think that a day will not come when, after Ukraine, Moldavia, the Baltic States, Poland, Romania or any other country not worth it had been swallowed by Russia in the name of "it's not worth it", the next and final goal of Russia will  be complete hegemony of the West, ie all-out war with the USA.

[Herman]

I don't follow Dutch politics.  Is Frans Timmermans in a position of significant influence that can sway not only Dutch but also broad European and American policy responses? 

Timmermans is VP of the European Commission.

[Todd]

Okay, then --- how much USD/EURO is he willing to take for his retiring from Ukraine?

Good question.  Maybe a trillion.  Europeans can plump for it.  This whole situation is a European problem.

Or, "The West" will muddle through, Russia will end up with a less satisfactory than hoped for outcome, promises of further NATO expansion will be made but not promptly (or ever) followed up on, and the people of Ukraine will suffer, as will some other neighboring European countries as they absorb more refugees.  The US can take a token number to show solidarity. 

Too bad it's so hard to get in on the action with Turkish and South Korean arms manufacturers - they will gain from this situation.  (One can always trade shares of established American players in the space, of course.) 

[Florestan]

Well, in Spain at least the "new, radical" left (Unidas Podemos, which is the junior member in the government coalition, led by the Socialist Party), immediately brought up their opposition to NATO —of which Spain is a member— when halfheartedly condemning Putin's aggression. And, truth be said, prior to the invasion, their sympathy clearly lay more with Putin and his cronies than with the West. Other parties from which the government receives parliamentary support (namely, the leftist faction of the Catalan independentists, and the political heirs of the Basque terrorist groups) also tried to invoke some bizarre equidistance, i.e. "Putin bad, NATO just as bad". Fortunately , the Prime Minister —of whom I am no fan— has been very clear about his support of Ukraine, his condemnation of Putin's actions, and about Spain bring firmly in the EU/NATO/West camp.

Spain has a long tradition of latent or overt anti-Americanism. On the right, because of the historical humiliation of the Spanish-American war in 1898, the trigger of which is seen as having been —actually, it was— a pure fabrication and a dishonest act. It gave what remained of the Spanish Empire (which had been in decline for centuries) its coup de grâce. But, of course, that Empire was doomed in any case.

On the left, America is seen as the source of all evils, and the reason that has prevented the whole of Europe from enjoying the delights of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Russia, the traditional "counterweight" to American hegemony in the 20th century, is still viewed with sympathy by this lot, even if the current kleptocratic regime in Russia is a perfect example of a system that displays all the excesses and defects of capitalism, and few of its benefits. It's as if they didn't realise that, compared to the current European Social-Democratic "standard", Putin is to the right of Attila the Hun.

All rather schizophrenic, I'm afraid...

But, TBH, the vast majority of the population seems to be appalled by Russia's aggression, has huge sympathy for the Ukrainian people (of which there's a good contingent living in Spain), and is clear that their allegiance lies with the West (even if we are aware we are a rather insignificant player in this horror that is unfolding).

I will refrain from commenting on Spanish politics and history, although I have strong and informed opinions about them. I will just reiterate what I previously said: I am no left sympathizer, let alone a leftist. 

[Florestan]

the people of Ukraine will suffer, as will some other neighboring European countries as they absorb more refugees.  The US can take a token number to show solidarity. 

Ever the cynic, right?

As I said, don't you ever think that a day will not come when there will be the one final confrontation between the USA and Russia --- and maybe (just maybe) that fatal day you'd regret that so many countries not worth it had already disappeared...

[Todd]

As I said, don't you ever think that a day will not come when there will be the one final confrontation between the USA and Russia

No.  Putin is old.  He will die, of natural causes or otherwise, before his nefarious plan of total Russian domination of Europe comes to pass.  I mean sure, whoever comes next may be even worse, and will directly invade, oh, say, France, or whatever, precipitating the end of civilization.  It's all very troubling.

In the meantime, the US has other options.  Sends bags of money and tons of weapons to the Caucasus and Central Asia.  Set the east ablaze. 

[drogulus]

     Katrina in The Nation, a publication that is totally unheard of:

The Nation condemns the decision of Russian President Vladimir Putin to abandon the path of diplomacy by attacking and undertaking "special military operations" in Ukraine. These actions violate international law and fuel a dangerous escalation of violence.

     What path of diplomacy? What is this dangerous escalation? It's a fucking invasion.

     OK, maybe The Nation is a little unheard of outside the US, though it's been a prominent feature of leftist journalism for as long as I can remember.