Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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Florestan

Quote from: Que on March 10, 2022, 06:00:14 AM
Different war, same lies....

In a tweet, the Russian Embassy referred to claims that "recently found documents" showed components of biological weapons were made in Ukrainian laboratories - with funding from the US Department of Defense.

The US dismissed the claims, saying it was the "kind of disinformation operation we've seen repeatedly from the Russians over the years in Ukraine and in other countries".

Russian officials and media have also claimed in recent days that Ukraine was planning to build a so-called dirty bomb - which disperses radioactive material.

Meanwhile Russia's foreign minister has claimed Ukraine had been seeking nuclear weapons.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60683248


It gives me no pleasure in saying this, but the parallels with the Iraq invasion are rather striking and unsettling...

At least Bush and Rumsfeld never claimed that they didn't attack Iraq.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Que

Quote from: Florestan on March 10, 2022, 06:04:38 AM
At least Bush and Rumsfeld never claimed that they didn't attack Iraq.

But they didn't have permission of the UN Security Council and they didn't have just cause.

With the invasion of Iraq the US and the UK crossed a legal and moral line that is now coming to haunt them.

Florestan

Quote from: Que on March 10, 2022, 06:11:17 AM
With the invasion of Iraq the US and the UK crossed a legal and moral line that is now coming to haunt them.

Agreed. Kosovo and the bombing of Serbia too.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: absolutelybaching on March 10, 2022, 06:14:47 AMI am postulating an entirely fantastical situation...

I am fantasising...

Some people enjoy rich fantasy lives, it is true.


Quote from: Que on March 10, 2022, 06:11:17 AM
But they didn't have permission of the UN Security Council and they didn't have just cause.

With the invasion of Iraq the US and the UK crossed a legal and moral line that is now coming to haunt them.

UN approval is a nice to have, not a must have.  Future historians will note the UN's practical irrelevance in stopping great powers and even lesser powers from slaughtering whomever they choose.  They will also note the ICC's selective prosecution record for obvious misdeeds.  Some people see that now.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

LKB

Quote from: MusicTurner on March 10, 2022, 03:48:13 AM
Yes, a professional liar, and to an exceptional degree.

Headlines here in DK are, that Lavrov said '... but we haven't attacked Ukraine at all', etc.
Teddy Roosevelt once remarked to the effect that Russians will even lie when it is not in their best interest. It's become so prevalent in their day-to-living that it's become unremarkable and expected:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2012/10/22/why-lying-has-become-a-national-pastime-a18754



Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

drogulus


     Biological Threat Reduction Program

The U.S. Department of Defense's Biological Threat Reduction Program collaborates with partner countries to counter the threat of outbreaks (deliberate, accidental, or natural) of the world's most dangerous infectious diseases.  The program accomplishes its bio-threat reduction mission through development of a bio-risk management culture; international research partnerships; and partner capacity for enhanced bio-security, bio-safety, and bio-surveillance measures. The Biological Threat Reduction Program's priorities in Ukraine are to consolidate and secure pathogens and toxins of security concern and to continue to ensure Ukraine can detect and report outbreaks caused by dangerous pathogens before they pose security or stability threats.

Current executive agents of the Biological Threat Reduction Program in Ukraine are the Ministry of Health, the State Service of Ukraine for Food Safety and Consumer Protection, the National Academy of Agrarian Sciences, and the Ministry of Defense.


     Active Research Projects

BTRP supports many collaborative research projects through which Ukrainian and American scientists work together.  A few recent examples are:

     "Risk Assessment of Selected Avian EDPs Potentially Carried by Migratory Birds over Ukraine"
    "Prevalence of Crimean Congo hemorrhagic fever virus and hantaviruses in Ukraine and the potential requirement for differential diagnosis of suspect leptospirosis patients"
      "The Spread of African Swine Fever Virus (ASFV) in Domestic Pigs and Wild Boars in Ukraine – Building Capacity for Insight into the Transmission of ASFV through Characterization of Virus Isolates by Genome Sequencing and Phylogenetic Analysis"
    "ASFBiosurveillanceand ASF Regional Risk Assessment: A Field to Plate Survey"
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Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Biden admn has been skeptical/passive about the allegation of war crimes by Putin. I was wondering if it's because Biden is worried that such a legal case against Putin at the ICC would elevate the public opinion for a war crime charge against Bush and Cheney.

BasilValentine

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 10, 2022, 02:18:35 PM
Biden admn has been skeptical/passive about the allegation of war crimes by Putin. I was wondering if it's because Biden is worried that such a legal case against Putin at the ICC would elevate the public opinion for a war crime charge against Bush and Cheney.

Convene the corpse synod now!

Seriously though, didn't VP Harris just say today that Putin should definitely be investigated for war crimes?

Todd

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 10, 2022, 02:18:35 PMI was wondering if it's because Biden is worried that such a legal case against Putin at the ICC would elevate the public opinion for a war crime charge against Bush and Cheney.


All presidential administrations engage in acts that could be construed as war crimes.  Even the Biden Administration - eg, seven dead children from one drone strike.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Spotted Horses

If only Ukraine could put Putin on the ignore list. In any case, shall we rename the thread GMG at war, or get back on topic?
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Que

This looks desperate...

"Vladimir Putin has said Russia must welcome volunteers who want to fight Ukrainian forces and help them to get to combat areas"

Herman

Looks like Pute is going to do to Uke what he did to Aleppo, Syria. Just shell the living daylights out of the cities and return the country to the Stone Age.

Those reports about the Russian army failing logistically and strategically make me very uncomfortable, because it doesn't really matter to Pute how many Russian soldiers die. He controls the domestic media, so no one in Russia will ever know.

He's just going to pound the place into submission.

That's why I'm also deeply uncomfortable about Zelensky's heroic 'We will not back down'. It's the same as with that story about thirteen guys on that island saying 'fuck you' to the Russians and getting killed. Fortunately the story wasn't true, but I really have no idea where wisdom lies in this situation. A hundred thousand Ukrainians may die, but in the end Pute will prevail; or we'll have WW3.

Que

I agree, the situation is very worrisome.

There seems to be no incentive for Putin to back down, only to escalate further and further.

Looking at the narrative the Russian are trying to spin in recent days, his next step will be the use of chemical and biological  weapons.

I wonder if Zelensky has considered playing the long game by agreeing to a cease fire at Russian terms to avoid further destruction and loss of life, and then wait and see what will happen in the next few years.

Harry

Quote from: Que on March 11, 2022, 02:19:43 AM
I agree, the situation is very worrisome.

There seems to be no incentive for Putin to back down, only to escalate further and further.

Looking at the narrative the Russian are trying to spin in recent days, his next step will be the use of chemical and biological  weapons.

I wonder if Zelensky has considered playing the long game by agreeing to a cease fire at Russian terms to avoid further destruction and loss of life, and then wait and see what will happen in the next few years.

This will never happen, it's simply not in their frame of mind to stop fighting, or no option if you prefer.  This is what my Ukrainian refugee is telling me. They will give their life to stop Poetin and his murderous band of puppets.
Quote from Manuel, born in Spain, currently working at Fawlty Towers.

" I am from Barcelona, I know nothing.............."

Que

This is heading for a total break down of any economic relations, with confiscation of state assets and nationalisation of private assets (on both sides):

Russia plans to seize assets of western companies that pull out

Western banks and investors with exposure in Russia are going to take a major hit....

Florestan

Quote from: "Harry" on March 11, 2022, 02:32:19 AM
This will never happen, it's simply not in their frame of mind to stop fighting, or no option if you prefer.  This is what my Ukrainian refugee is telling me. They will give their life to stop Poetin and his murderous band of puppets.

Their fierce and heroic resistance against the Russian invaders rightly won them the support, admiration and respect of the whole world. Morally they have already won this war. The question, though, is this: are they willing to endure an enormous death toll among civilians, the complete shelling of the main cities, Kiev included and an increasing risk of nuclear power plant catastrophe in order to achieve basically nothing or very little, because let's face it: they can stall the Russian advance but they can't repel the Russian Army back within Russian borders; they will never join NATO, Crimea had been already lost and the only relative freedom of negotiation they have is over Luganks and Donetsk. A resistance to the bitter end wil leave UKraine  in complete ruins, outside NATO and without Crimea and Lugansk/Donetsk, and with possibly as much as 10% of the population fled to other countries and it will take decades to rebuild both the infrastructure and the economy (which may be the case already).  Is it a reasonable price to pay for showing the whole world their patriotism and heroism, both of which they already displayed aplenty? I'm just asking.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Harry

Quote from: Florestan on March 11, 2022, 03:44:36 AM
Their fierce and heroic resistance against the Russian invaders rightly won them the support, admiration and respect of the whole world. Morally they have already won this war. The question, though, is this: are they willing to endure an enormous death toll among civilians, the complete shelling of the main cities, Kiev included and an increasing risk of nuclear power plant catastrophe in order to achieve basically nothing or very little, because let's face it: they can stall the Russian advance but they can't repel the Russian Army back within Russian borders; they will never join NATO, Crimea had been already lost and the only relative freedom of negotiation they have is over Luganks and Donetsk. A resistance to the bitter end wil leave UKraine  in complete ruins, outside NATO and without Crimea and Lugansk/Donetsk, and with possibly as much as 10% of the population fled to other countries and it will take decades to rebuild both the infrastructure and the economy (which may be the case already).  Is it a reasonable price to pay for showing the whole world their patriotism and heroism, both of which they already displayed aplenty? I'm just asking.

She says yes. Loosing your birth ground is as loosing your soul. She is but one voice, but I think she speaks for all. Your assessment of the present situation is correct. But our husbands are on the battlefield and will not stop before they are dead, and those that come in their place until none are left. Her words.
Quote from Manuel, born in Spain, currently working at Fawlty Towers.

" I am from Barcelona, I know nothing.............."

steve ridgway

It's encouraging to see the Russian blitzkrieg failed to achieve a swift victory in the face of determined resistance. NATO will be learning how best to defend against them if they haven't already been put off invading anybody else.

Mandryka

QuoteWitness this army of such mass and charge
Led by a delicate and tender prince,
Whose spirit with divine ambition puff'd
Makes mouths at the invisible event,
Exposing what is mortal and unsure
To all that fortune, death and danger dare,
Even for an egg-shell. Rightly to be great
Is not to stir without great argument,
But greatly to find quarrel in a straw
When honour's at the stake.

. . .

I see
The imminent death of twenty thousand men,
That, for a fantasy and trick of fame,
Go to their graves like beds, fight for a plot
Whereon the numbers cannot try the cause,
Which is not tomb enough and continent
To hide the slain?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen