Europe at War

[Que]

What does America want as end game?

Good question. See Russia fail, in any case. But I'm not sure if they know what that supposed to look like.

One of the things Putin wanted was fresh water in the Crimea. Another was Odessa. A third was to ensure the neutrality of the Ukraine.

Putin will keep whatever he can get his hands on. I think he is purposely avoiding an attack on Odessa because he doesn't want to destroy his big prize. The surrender of an complety encircled Odessa will be one of his conditions, as is Ukrainian recognition of the "independence" of the territories he will take (which will subsequently "rejoin" the Motherland) and full demilitarisation and neutrality of what will be left of Ukraine. 

Ukraine will never agree to these terms,  but won't be able to retake the territories it lost.
We might see a ceasefire ending up in a stalemate. Meanwhile Russia will remain isolated and its economy crippled.
An global energy crisis seems likely and so does a global economic recession. Plus the world has become a less safe place.

Everybody loses, I guess...

[Mandryka]

Good question. See Russia fail, in any case. But I'm not sure if they know what that supposed to look like.

How about this: one of America's key aims is to get the EU to stop paying Russia for petrochemicals, and buy it from the US instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/06/us-allies-discuss-russian-oil-imports-ban

[Andante]

I would like to congratulate GMG admin on having an open thread on this subject of the Russian invasion, it is not allowed on TC unless it is a music related post??  e.g. Will you now throw away all your CDs of Russian artists and composers? Even musicians, composers and music lovers live in the real world and want to express their point of view on the dangerous situation that we are ALL in.

[MusicTurner]

Sviatohirsk monastery, one of the most spectacular sights in Eastern Ukraine, apparently experiencing Russian bombings. Monks and 500 refugees there, according to reports. Damage has been limited, at least so far, but there are wounded and hospitalized.

[Que]

How about this: one of America's key aims is to get the EU to stop paying Russia for petrochemicals, and buy it from the US instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/06/us-allies-discuss-russian-oil-imports-ban

For the short term Europe will indeed have to buy elsewhere instead.
But unlike the US, European politics is not divided over climate change and the need to convert to "greener" sources of energy. This crisis is actually ceating a large push in EU policy towards that goal.

[Que]

Will you now throw away all your CDs of Russian artists and composers?

I don't think anyone is seriously contemplating that. As a Dutchman, I would have throw away all British (multiple sea wars), French (one attempted invasion and one succesfull one) and German (invasion in WW II) music as well.

Would Russia burn all its Rembrandts because the Dutch gave weapons to the Ukranian govt? I hope not...

[MusicTurner]

For the short term Europe will indeed have to buy elsewhere instead.
But unlike the US, European politics is not divided over climate change and the need to convert to "greener" sources of energy. This crisis is actually ceating a large push in EU policy towards that goal.

Indeed.

[Madiel]

For the short term Europe will indeed have to buy elsewhere instead.
But unlike the US, European politics is not divided over climate change and the need to convert to "greener" sources of energy. This crisis is actually ceating a large push in EU policy towards that goal.

Yes, I actually heard something about this during the week. Double-edged new policy, to source gas from elsewhere but also to work hard at cutting gas demand.

[Mandryka]

And I believe Italy is very dependent on fossil fuels.

Another objective of the US -- demonstrate the power economic warfare capacity of the USA and their allies.

Economic warfare cuts both ways of course, and I noticed a headline the other day that The Lebanon is expecting to see wheat shortages. Famine leads to revolution, so the political consequences in, for example, North Africa, could be significant.

[Mandryka]

I don't get it. Demonstrate their economic power by demonstrating their dependence on foreign energy sources?

What I was thinking of was the power of freezing liquid assets, and reducing trade.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well wouldn't that have been handier before Putin invaded Ukraine?

How would that have worked, exactly??  Pre-invasion, we crater their economy so they can't afford to invade?  That looks to me an awful lot like a premptive offensive move that would undercut your position on the moral high ground. 😕

🤠😎

[relm1]

Will you now throw away all your CDs of Russian artists and composers? Even musicians, composers and music lovers live in the real world and want to express their point of view on the dangerous situation that we are ALL in.

Absolutely not.  Russians are victims in this too.  Victims of a madman, propaganda/misinformation, etc.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

My wife has a niece in Ukraine who has crossed the border on foot and made her way to Warsaw, where she has friends and a place to stay. Her parents, though, refused to leave, so the girl is safe, but not at rest.

I'm glad that she made it to safety, but I'm sorry to hear that her family is still there.  Any idea how close they are currently to any fighting Karl?

Sviatohirsk monastery, one of the most spectacular sights in Eastern Ukraine, apparently experiencing Russian bombings. Monks and 500 refugees there, according to reports. Damage has been limited, at least so far, but there are wounded and hospitalized.

Very sorry to hear that.   

PD

[steve ridgway]

Today it was announced by the Russian Orthodox in Amsterdam that all the priests and deacons refused to pray for Patriarch Kirill, and consequently left the church and asked the Patriarch of Constantinople to accept them. Good choice I hope the rest will follow. The parochians have to decide, until then no Liturgies. Our Bishop was rushed from Brussels in a diplomatic car from the Russian ambassy to get all noses towards Russia, but they refused point blank.
Hurray

After reading a bit about the Orthodox Church I can see how this makes sense; not as drastic as switching to Roman Catholic. Good luck to them. 0:)

[steve ridgway]

I would like to congratulate GMG admin on having an open thread on this subject of the Russian invasion, it is not allowed on TC unless it is a music related post??  e.g. Will you now throw away all your CDs of Russian artists and composers? Even musicians, composers and music lovers live in the real world and want to express their point of view on the dangerous situation that we are ALL in.

Can I keep Schnittke? Although born in the Soviet Union, his father was a Jew from Frankfurt and his mother a Volga German.

Seriously though, no, I think the idea is just to avoid any public display that might be seen as supportive of Russia.

[Gurn Blanston]

Which I think is silly. I fail to see how performing Tchaikovsky is somehow "supporting Russia". And anyway the target is Putin, not "Russia".

Agreed.  👍  Saw an interesting item on the evening news last night about a big rash of major vandalism attacks on restaurants with Russian names, like Russia House in DC and Russian Tea Room in Manhattan. These places are like 100 years old and 3-4 generations removed from Russia. What possible relevance can breaking their windows  have to Putin??

Or the bars that are pouring all of their vodka, made outside of Russia by foreign contractors, down the street gutter.. boy howdy 🤠, that'll show them Russkies!   F***ing morons... 😠

🤠😎

[Karl Henning]

Good question. See Russia fail, in any case. But I'm not sure if they know what that supposed to look like.

Not a fine point, I don't think: See to it that Putin fails. It's hard for me to see this as other than a global concern. And so, if any of us should see anything like a problem with the US taking the lead here, I'm sure Biden would gladly pass the gavel to any other who might be more competent.

[Karl Henning]

I would like to congratulate GMG admin on having an open thread on this subject of the Russian invasion, it is not allowed on TC unless it is a music related post??  e.g. Will you now throw away all your CDs of Russian artists and composers? Even musicians, composers and music lovers live in the real world and want to express their point of view on the dangerous situation that we are ALL in.

Testimony, really, to how the GMG participants can (for the greater part) be reasonable adults, I think.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, I actually heard something about this during the week. Double-edged new policy, to source gas from elsewhere but also to work hard at cutting gas demand.

It ain't easy, for sure! Speaking as the citizen of a country which (nearly at best) has just kicked the can down the road.

[Karl Henning]

Absolutely not.  Russians are victims in this too.  Victims of a madman, propaganda/misinformation, etc.

Exactly: The Russian people have been Putin's first victims.