Europe at War

[MusicTurner]

     
(...)
     One thing we should be able to agree on, whatever fascist Ukes might say to the contrary, is that the world wide leader of ultranationalist white Christian supremacy is Vladimir Putin.

Cf. for example this popular video celebrating the invasion symbol "Z" and the president; updated fascism, that is:
https://twitter.com/Den_2042/status/1500756327106236417?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Here, terminally ill cancer children in a Russian hospital in Kazan were put in a celebrating Z-formation to be photographed from a drone, for PR reasons:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/07/russias-terminally-children-line-letter-z-stunt-show-kremlin/


The 'Z' symbol is btw also curiously reminiscent of Nazi logos too.

Also, some Westerners got the wrong impression that the Lugansk and Donetsk 'republics' are somehow 'socialist'; they are not. They are dictatorships. One of the first actions there was dissolving the unions. There were notorious theatre court cases, with death penalty as the result of raised hands among the gathered public.

[SimonNZ]

Media presentation of Ukraine before Feb 2022. Truth is the first casualty of war . . . or peace . . .  or both?

Did you actually check the sources of the headlines in that gif to see if they really do represent "western media" coverage of Ukraine immediately pre-war, or even check a few mainstream media outlets yourself to see more broadly how they covered Ukraine before the war?

Rhetorical question. You obviously havent. But you are going to tell us that the truth is the first victim. And imply that the mainstream media is all fake news but gif makers are independent free thinkers beholden to no one with no agenda.

So far in my own checking these headlines come from sites I've never heard of. There is one from the BBC...from 2014.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30134421

[Todd]

US warns Chinese on support for Russia in Ukraine war

I have doubts that the US can effectively engage in economic warfare against Russia and China at the same time.  America can achieve a certain level of self-harming success while attempting to do so, however.  Or, maybe this is the opening of something broader, and can serve as a test-run for sanctions against China in the event it tries to take back Taiwan.

Japan got the memo... The fact that the possibility of an invasion (of Japan) is even mentioned, means that the new reality has sunken in. I expect that Japan will start to rearm soon.

There are reasons why the Japanese built flat deck "destroyers", I mean, in addition to meeting the self defense strictures of the Japanese Constitution. 

[Mandryka]

Did you actually check the sources of the headlines in that gif to see if they really do represent "western media" coverage of Ukraine immediately pre-war, or even check a few mainstream media outlets yourself to see more broadly how they covered Ukraine before the war?

Rhetorical question. You obviously havent. But you are going to tell us that the truth is the first victim. And imply that the mainstream media is all fake news but gif makers are independent free thinkers beholden to no one with no agenda.

So far in my own checking these headlines come from sites I've never heard of. There is one from the BBC...from 2014.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30134421

Where do you think the Nazis have gone, Simon?

I killed two minutes by typing in the headlines of some of them - these were the top hit on google. Make of it what you will


https://www.theweek.co.uk/92041/britons-join-neo-nazi-militia-in-ukraine
https://eurasianet.org/ukraine-far-right-fighters-from-europe-fight-for-ukraine
https://www.timesofisrael.com/nazi-symbols-salutes-on-display-at-ukrainian-nationalist-march/
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/far-right-extremists-in-ukrainian-military-bragged-about-canadian-training-report-says-1.5631304

For obvious reasons, you'd expect mainstream media coverage of Ukraine to be around the invasion of the Crimea, and now.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

In retaliation to the U.S. sanctions, Russia sanctions Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, Hillary Clinton and others. It appears that Putin is trying to boost and take advantage of the Republican animosity toward the Democrats in the USA. He should have sanctioned Nancy Pelosi, Alexandria OC, Ilhan Omar, and Liz Cheney (R) as well. 

[drogulus]

Where do you think the Nazis have gone, Simon?

     I think the point is that far right extremists are present in European democratic countries, and they often appear in news accounts. I don't see this is any more significant in Ukraine than in Germany Sweden, France or the UK. Ukrainians seem to have taken to democratic government quite well.

[Mandryka]

     I think the point is that far right extremists are present in European democratic countries, and they often appear in news accounts. I don't see this is any more significant in Ukraine than in Germany Sweden, France or the UK. Ukrainians seem to have taken to democratic government quite well.

Imagine the headlines


Yes you're right. You could imagine many of those headlines with UK, France, Germany, USA substituted for Ukraine!

[Karl Henning]

... But you are going to tell us that the truth is the first victim.

I see many in The Diner ready to victimize the truth on their own account....

[SimonNZ]

Where do you think the Nazis have gone, Simon?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Please explain.

Because being able to find 20 headlines on any story from across the entire internet over a decade is completely unremarkable and says nothing about "Western Media" and is not at all an indictment of it.

I really want to know now: who made that gif?

[MusicTurner]

Here's a global list of some neo-Nazi organizations, including at times with estimated number of members
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neo-Nazi_organizations#Ukraine

and a list of active, ultra-nationalist parties in Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

[drogulus]

I have doubts that the US can effectively engage in economic warfare against Russia and China at the same time. 

     The way it will be done is sanctions against banks, companies and particular government entities directly involved in supporting Russia. There will be some cost to the US and allies.

     China is not in good shape. Supporting Putin is more costly than they thought it would be and the trouble for them hasn't really started.

     If China learns the alliances are not the pushovers they imagined they might be deterred from invading Taiwan. Perhaps they'll go north instead and liberate Mongolia and Manchuria. That's what I'd recommend.

Yes you're right. You could imagine many of those headlines with UK, France, Germany, USA substituted for Ukraine!

     I don't have to imagine headlines. I read up on extremist groups when they are in the news. It's somewhat worrying that these groups exist, but I keep that in proportion to other more serious worries.

[Madiel]

Media presentation of Ukraine before Feb 2022. Truth is the first casualty of war . . . or peace . . .  or both?

Oh right, I can really verify the accuracy of a meme about "Western media" from a bunch of headlines...

Meanwhile, it cannot be emphasised enough that the President of Ukraine is Jewish. And has been since long before February 2022. That fact alone makes a whole lot of nonsense out of the "Ukraine is a Nazi state" narrative. A Jew does not win a massive amount of the vote in a presidential election in a Nazi state.

Here in the Australian Capital Territory you could find news headlines about a candidate who was a homophobe. The headline wouldn't tell you that we have a gay leader (and married now as well), or that the homophobe candidate got an amusingly small number of votes, spit the dummy and whined about how he was going to leave the ACT.

[amw]

Looking again, it seems that it was more of a partial cease fire to allow residents to leave two cities:  Mariupol and Volnavakha.  And was for 35 hours.  https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/05/russian-state-media-claims-temporary-ceasefire-at-mariupol-volnovakha.html  And it seems that it's not being honored by the Russians. 

Definitely not being honoured—several thousand additional families were able to escape from Mariupol, but Russian forces used the opportunity to move deeper into the city, which naturally led to a resumption of shelling.

Volnovakha has been under near-complete DPR control for several days now; there is theoretically a humanitarian corridor in the form of the Donetsk-Dnipro highway, but given that it's now entirely through occupied territory I have no idea how many people were willing to risk fleeing that way. Russian forces are supposed to be distributing humanitarian aid to residents, as was agreed in talks last week, and while there's fairly extensive (if circumstantial) evidence that the RuAF has honoured that agreement in Kherson, Melitopol, Berdyansk, outlying areas of Mariupol and Sumy, etc, I wouldn't necessarily trust DPR fascists to do the same.

Meanwhile, it cannot be emphasised enough that the President of Ukraine is Jewish. And has been since long before February 2022. That fact alone makes a whole lot of nonsense out of the "Ukraine is a Nazi state" narrative. A Jew does not win a massive amount of the vote in a presidential election in a Nazi state.

Honestly, I wouldn't read a lot into Zelensky's ethnicity: in the USA we did have a non-white president for a few years, but it was not only that small, "fringe" white supremacist militias continued to be a problem for that entire time period, but also that they continued to exert outsize influence over mainstream political parties and discourse (and still do, to this day)—thus why mainstream political parties might feel the pressure to ban "critical race theory", permit the vehicular manslaughter of protestors, declare democratic elections illegitimate, etc, because while the white nationalist fringe represents a tiny minority, that minority happens to contain a) the police, b) the people who own all the guns, c) a lot of very rich people. Therefore, one could accurately describe the USA as a "state with white supremacist elements".

Similarly, although far-right parties in Ukraine have zero presence in the Verkhovna Rada, the "mainstream" parties in the country have definitely felt and reacted to a certain amount of pressure to embrace Banderaism, incorporate far-right militias into the National Guard and so on. The fact that a significant majority of Ukrainians (about 70% voted for Zelensky, iirc) were opposed to this platform doesn't make a huge difference. Just over the course of the last few weeks Zelensky himself has felt it necessary to replace several more moderate political leaders with far-right hardliners and I suspect it's partly for the same reason: the far right has money, guns, control of law enforcement, and the willingness to use all three for short-term political gain, even during an actual defensive war.

In states where the far right has actively captured the entire government, such as Russia itself, we obviously see much more dire consequences both domestically and internationally. (To some extent this offers us a preview of a theoretical DeSantis/Hawley administration, but it's more likely that Trump himself wins reelection in 2024.)

[greg]

Meanwhile, it cannot be emphasised enough that the President of Ukraine is Jewish. And has been since long before February 2022. That fact alone makes a whole lot of nonsense out of the "Ukraine is a Nazi state" narrative.

This reminds me of a certain recent event in Canada lol.

[Madiel]

This reminds me of a certain recent event in Canada lol.

I can't meaningfully respond as I haven't the faintest idea what you're referring to.

[Spotted Horses]

I can't meaningfully respond as I haven't the faintest idea what you're referring to.

No one does.

[greg]

I can't meaningfully respond as I haven't the faintest idea what you're referring to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmQghqnni4k

To summarize the video, blackface Trudeau says the conservative party members are standing with Nazis, meanwhile they mention how they are Jewish descendants of Holocaust victims. They ask him to apologize three different times and he ignores the request each time. He characterizes the entire trucker convoy protest as Nazi supporting.

I hear that Russian propaganda was pushing the "taking out Nazis in Ukraine" narrative. While, as you note, Zelensky himself is Jewish. Seems like Putin is taking cues from the west (as China has done in some ways also, in their criticisms of the US).

The point is, it's just a manipulative tactic being pushed around by those seeking (or trying to maintain) power.

Disagree with my way of doing things? "Hey people, look at this Nazi!"

That's how you control people- convince them there is a threat, and tell them that you can save them, that your cause is just and whoever disagrees is part of the problem.

The actual percentage of people that are Neo-Nazis around the world is incredibly low- pretty much universally despised. The average person hates Nazis. So it's easy to get onboard with it, just believe what they say.

But question anything about their reasons for attacking the so-called "Neo-Nazis," or any sort of policy that they might have that negatively affects them, and all of a sudden you are a Neo-Nazi yourself. (in the case of Canada, get your bank account frozen temporarily)

[JBS]

1) there were actual white supremacists in the Canadian convoy. And being Jewish does not mean a person won't support such people. [Points to Stephen Miller as an obvious example.]

2)I read an interesting thread on Twitter the other day which gave an explanation of Putin's use of the term "Nazi".
In brief:
Putin is making a renewed cult of World War II aka Great Patriotic War, in which the main enemy was the Nazis.
At the same time Putin is continuing a long tradition of the Russian state to forcibly assimilate and Russify all minority groups. Those that resist are enemies of Russia and therefore termed Nazis.
Ukraine is currently the leading example of those that refuse to assimilate and thus is a Nazi state in need of de-Nazification and assimilate into the new Russian empire.

[Madiel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmQghqnni4k

To summarize the video, blackface Trudeau

*snip*

While I get the point of what you're saying, your very first word after claiming to summarize the video has nothing to do with the video.

You don't really bolster an argument about how other people are playing politics by immediately demonstrating your own desire to play politics. You could just as easily make a critical argument about what Trudeau is doing without the word "blackface", so why on earth are you distracting from the power of your argument about how people needlessly throw "Nazi" around by needlessly throwing in your own derogatory adjective?

I mean, you're criticising manipulation but couldn't resist throwing in your own bit of manipulation, at the exact moment when a bit of sobriety in tone would have made your case a heck of a lot better.  Calling him "blackface Trudeau" just immediately communicates to me a non-neutral stance.

[Spotted Horses]

1) there were actual white supremacists in the Canadian convoy. And being Jewish does not mean a person won't support such people. [Points to Stephen Miller as an obvious example.]...

Trudeau was factually accurate is stating that Conservatives were aligning with those that display a Swastika, although it was somewhat disingenuous since in most cases the Swastika was displayed to imply the Canadian government was equivalent to Nazis because they wanted people to get vaccinated. As you say, there were some white supremacists among the protesters, but I don't get the impression a sizeable fraction of the demonstrators could be characterized that way.

... Putin is making a renewed cult of World War II aka Great Patriotic War, in which the main enemy was the Nazis.
At the same time Putin is continuing a long tradition of the Russian state to forcibly assimilate and Russify all minority groups. Those that resist are enemies of Russia and therefore termed Nazis.
Ukraine is currently the leading example of those that refuse to assimilate and thus is a Nazi state in need of de-Nazification and assimilate into the new Russian empire.

There is something to this, although in Ukraine the accusation of Nazi control of the country was ramped up after President Yanukovych refused to confirm a trade agreement with the E.U. and instead decided to accept loans and close economic ties with Russia. There were huge demonstrations, and the demonstrators were violently attacked by security forces controlled by Yanukovych, who eventually fled to Russia. The Russian narrative is that Ukraine was taken over by Nazis. Ukraine did have an ultra-nationalist party (Svoboda) which could be styled as neo-Nazi, but it was small and not influential.