Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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Todd

Quote from: fbjim on April 05, 2022, 08:30:51 AMNot to be glib, but it's been a long-standing tenet that only Africans get successfully charged with war crimes by the ICC.

To date all prosecutions have been of Africans.  The ICC is investigating cases in multiple countries, though, including Georgia, Venezuela, the Philippines, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar, Palestine - and now Ukraine.  Perhaps the ICC targets Putin.  He may very well be terrified of such an investigation. 
 

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2022, 09:20:47 AMThat's not the same outfit that put the Serbs in jail?

No.


Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2022, 09:20:47 AMMaybe Africans have a higher number of atrocities committed per capita?

Probably not, and if that metric were used, surely The House of Saud would face a serious reckoning, among others.
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The new erato

Quote from: Todd on April 05, 2022, 11:29:48 AM

........and if that metric were used, surely The House of Saud would face a serious reckoning, among others.

Indeed.

Herman

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
That's not the same outfit that put the Serbs in jail? Once they were finally caught they were convicted and are all still there except the one that died while awaiting trial (Milosevec?).

Yes, that's correct.

Que

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2022, 09:20:47 AMThat's not the same outfit that put the Serbs in jail?

Quote from: Herman on April 05, 2022, 11:35:30 PM
Yes, that's correct.

The Rome Statute that founded the International Criminal Court only went into force on 1 July 2002.
Since the Balkan wars after the break up of Yugoslavia took place in the 1990s, war crimes were tried by a special tribunal: the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.
Which doesn't take away from the fact that this is a recent example in which war crimes by other than Africans were tried by an international tribunal. The problem with international justice is not ethnicity, but the fact that superpowers and countries protected by superpowers are practically immune.

With the Rome Satute in particular there is the issue of key states refusing to submit to the jurisdiction of the ICC. The US, Israel and Russia have signed but have not ratified the Statute. China and India have not even signed. Which gives a a clear indication of the state of the rule of international law, which is bad and has been undermined by many countries - including nations that consider themselves free and democratic.

Todd

Quote from: Que on April 06, 2022, 12:50:27 AMThe US, Israel and Russia have signed but have not ratified the Statute. China and India have not even signed. Which gives a a clear indication of the state of the rule of international law, which is bad and has been undermined by many countries - including nations that consider themselves free and democratic.


International law is a fiction, or an aspirational dream if one wants to apply a nicer sounding label.  Even signatories to the Rome Statute engage in vile acts that result in the death of civilians.  France has come under intense scrutiny for its recent actions in Africa, for instance.  And of course, "the allies" destroyed Libya a few years back.  Powerful nations can act as they have always acted.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

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relm1

What do you think is going on for these Russian troops to fall out of a moving troop transport?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwcxZJyW0iA

It's just such a bizarre sight, makes me think they were pushed off.  Perhaps getting into a fight with other troops, how else could no one of noticed they were missing unless intentional?

Harry

At least the Estonians are sending Houwitsers,  long range artillery 155 mm, to the Ukraine,  that could be a game changer in the Donbass.
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drogulus

     The Czechs are sending tanks and armored personnel carriers. The tanks are T-72s and according to an insanely reliable source* they are really quite good in spite of their age. The Ukes operate them expertly.

     * It's many sources, but the insane part comes from Cap and his merry band, who compared the worlds tanks in DCS.
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BasilValentine

Quote from: relm1 on April 06, 2022, 05:24:40 AM
What do you think is going on for these Russian troops to fall out of a moving troop transport?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwcxZJyW0iA

It's just such a bizarre sight, makes me think they were pushed off.  Perhaps getting into a fight with other troops, how else could no one of noticed they were missing unless intentional?

I didn't see anyone pushed out of or falling out of a vehicle. I saw two men running after a truck. One seemed to reach or nearly reach the back of the truck and then fall while either trying to hold on or after failing to find purchase. As for what's going on there i have no idea. Full up? They just didn't like those two guys? In any case it seems intentional. Or maybe it was just a game and they stopped for them later. 

Todd

The Price of Hegemony: Can America Learn to Use Its Power?

Neocon/Liberal Interventionist (it is possible to be one then the other - quite easily) Robert Kagan concedes, sort of, that the US helped establish the conditions of the current crisis:

Quote from: Robert KaganPutin alone is to blame for his actions, but the invasion of Ukraine is taking place in a historical and geopolitical context in which the United States has played and still plays the principal role, and Americans must grapple with this fact.

Alas, a good portion of his piece veers perilously close to America as the Shining City on a Hill which naturally acts as benign and accidental hegemon with something approaching omnipotence (the bit about the 20s/30s is a bit off, to put it mildly), and it contains this unabashed defense of preemptive war:

Quote from: Robert KaganIt is better for the United States to risk confrontation with belligerent powers when they are in the early stages of ambition and expansion, not after they have already consolidated substantial gains.
Bomb early, bomb often.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

71 dB

Quote from: "Harry" on April 06, 2022, 06:08:24 AM
At least the Estonians are sending Houwitsers,  long range artillery 155 mm, to the Ukraine,  that could be a game changer in the Donbass.

Estonia bought those from Finland in 2009 and originally they are from Germany from where Finland bought them in the 90's. Estonia needed the permission from both Germany and Finland to send them to Ukraine.
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Scion7

" A man rams his vehicle into the fence of the Russian Embassy in Bucharest, Romania. The attacker dies after setting himself on fire inside the car. "

Florestan ... please check in!   ???
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Karl Henning

Quote from: 71 dB on April 06, 2022, 01:44:08 PM
Estonia bought those from Finland in 2009 and originally they are from Germany from where Finland bought them in the 90's. Estonia needed the permission from both Germany and Finland to send them to Ukraine.
Coordinated effort.
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

relm1

Quote from: BasilValentine on April 06, 2022, 09:12:46 AM
I didn't see anyone pushed out of or falling out of a vehicle. I saw two men running after a truck. One seemed to reach or nearly reach the back of the truck and then fall while either trying to hold on or after failing to find purchase. As for what's going on there i have no idea. Full up? They just didn't like those two guys? In any case it seems intentional. Or maybe it was just a game and they stopped for them later.

Just seems very, very odd if an invading force that's losing is playing a game in occupied territory.  I see it as they desperately wanted back on the truck that didn't stop for them while knowing troops were left behind.

Que



Significant Ukrainian progress towards Kherson in the south. Perhaps they'll might be able to cut Russian supply lines from the Crimea.

Florestan

Quote from: Scion7 on April 06, 2022, 02:43:05 PM
" A man rams his vehicle into the fence of the Russian Embassy in Bucharest, Romania. The attacker dies after setting himself on fire inside the car. "

Florestan ... please check in!   ???

It actually happened yesterday at 6:00 in the morning. The man was a lunatic who had just been convicted to 15 years in prison for raping his step-daughter (another trial was pending, for raping his own daughter). Of course, the Russian ambassador made a big fuss about it, claiming it was a terrorrist acttion inspired by anti-Russian hysteria --- nonsense. Actually His Excellency Mr. Valery Kuzmin is upset because Romania expelled 10 Russian diplomats for spying. If you ask me, he should have been expelled together with them: his provocative anti-Romanian statements over the years are notorious.
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BasilValentine

Quote from: relm1 on April 06, 2022, 04:54:52 PM
Just seems very, very odd if an invading force that's losing is playing a game in occupied territory.  I see it as they desperately wanted back on the truck that didn't stop for them while knowing troops were left behind.

Yes, certainly. I agree. And I apologize for my earlier levity. They had to have known they were abandoning their compatriots. 

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: BasilValentine on April 07, 2022, 04:42:30 AM
Yes, certainly. I agree. And I apologize for my earlier levity. They had to have known they were abandoning their compatriots.
How can/could they trust any of their fellow soldiers?  It's like each man is out for themselves.  Why are any of them bothering to "fight"?

PD

LKB

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 07, 2022, 04:48:14 AM
How can/could they trust any of their fellow soldiers?  It's like each man is out for themselves.  Why are any of them bothering to "fight"?

PD

Reportedly there are Chechen troops following the Russian attacking forces, whose responsibility is ensuring discipline and punishing acts of cowardice and deserters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadyrovites

So in at least some Russian units, options for escape may be practically non-existent.
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Karl Henning

Quote from: LKB on April 07, 2022, 07:25:54 AM
Reportedly there are Chechen troops following the Russian attacking forces, whose responsibility is ensuring discipline and punishing acts of cowardice and deserters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadyrovites

So in at least some Russian units, options for escape may be practically non-existent.

And, goodness knows, the Chechens hold a grudge.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot