Europe at War

[Johnnie Burgess]

Of course. NATO will benefit from both democracies, and as stated, Sweden and Finland will have their security assured. Win/win.

Or will NATO get 2 mort nations that will not spend 2% of GDP on defense?

[drogulus]

Or will NATO get 2 mort nations that will not spend 2% of GDP on defense?

     With the planned increases both countries will be over 2%. Right now Finland is at 1.5% and will increase by 70% above that.

[Scion7]

Chinese is difficult for the vast majority of native English speakers to learn.
What about Finns learning Russian?

[Johnnie Burgess]

     With the planned increases both countries will be over 2%. Right now Finland is at 1.5% and will increase by 70% above that.

Denmark says they will meet in 2033.  Will Finland and Sweden be willing to put it a legal document saying they will get to 2%?

[Karl Henning]

Chinese is difficult for the vast majority of native English speakers to learn.
What about Finns learning Russian?

Easier, I think for Finns to learn Russian than for Russians to learn Finnish.

[drogulus]

Denmark says they will meet in 2033.  Will Finland and Sweden be willing to put it a legal document saying they will get to 2%?

     It's happening very soon, not many years from now. In 2020 Finland spent ~1.5%, and for 2022 ~1.9%. The 70% figure is supposed to be a one time increase, but we'll see.

[Todd]

Denmark says they will meet in 2033.  Will Finland and Sweden be willing to put it a legal document saying they will get to 2%?

Denmark will not meet its obligations.  2033 is already nine years after the previously agreed to deadline.  Denmark, like most European countries, has no intention of meeting its obligations.  In general, European governments act in bad faith.  In practice, US taxpayers help subsidize European social programs. 

Finland is one of the few countries in the world that will likely meet its obligations.  Finland is one of the few countries to pay off its WWI debt to the US, and it is the only country that repaid its WWII reparation debt to the USSR, for instance.  Sweden will act like most other European countries and be a free rider, to use Obama's accurate phrase.

[Herman]

One way, of course, by which the USA profits from EU NATO members is by getting them to spend billions on US made arms, fighter jets etc.

[Karl Henning]

     It's happening very soon, not many years from now. In 2020 Finland spent ~1.5%, and for 2022 ~1.9%. The 70% figure is supposed to be a one time increase, but we'll see.

I'll go ahead and say that I am envious of those people with a government which can get things done, because it isn't held hostage by performative asshole Trumpkins.

[Johnnie Burgess]

I'll go ahead and say that I am envious of those people with a government which can get things done, because it isn't held hostage by performative asshole Trumpkins.

And do you think insulting people who disagree with you will help get things done?

[Johnnie Burgess]

One way, of course, by which the USA profits from EU NATO members is by getting them to spend billions on US made arms, fighter jets etc.

There is no requirement for them to buy US made equipment.  They did agree to spend 2%, so do the nations that doesn't do prove they are not to be trusted?

[Madiel]

Why cannot there be an intersection of altruism and enlightened self-interest?

No reason at all beyond a lack of imagination.

[milk]

I for one am ignoring Todd, and if everyone does this and do not give him fuel to react, he will die a silent dead.  So ignore is the answer.

People can do what they like. I'm interest in good counter-arguments though. Todd expresses a point of view that should be taken seriously. My worry is that we live in a social media environment in which people don't make arguments anymore. Todd can be a bit rude and insulting at times but most of his comments have real content. Strip away the tone and there's something there with which to contend. Someone has to do it otherwise we're just in an echo chamber.

[MusicTurner]

Denmark says they will meet in 2033.  Will Finland and Sweden be willing to put it a legal document saying they will get to 2%?

I agree that this is too slow regarding the DK development, like it has been previously. However, all major, traditionally governmental political parties here are behind the agreement, it's not a parliamentary fraction. And the budget will increase further every year from now on (like from 2018-2023). Also, DK has in reality been among the most eager to support US and NATO missions by deploying military abroad, with for example 43 fatalities in Afghanistan (if considering the population size, this exceeds the level of the US or the UK), involvements in severe fighting in Yugoslavia ('Operation Bøllebank' etc), Iraq, the stationing now in the Baltics, and so on.

The Finnish army is considered strong by experts, with 280,000 soldiers quite readily available, and 900,000 overall by total mobilization, the biggest artillery capabilities in Western Europe, etc. The Swedish needs upscaling, but their navy and air force are somewhat better. Swedish media and public debate have been very war-focused due to Ukraine, to a much higher degree than averagely found elsewhere.

[Madiel]

People can do what they like. I'm interest in good counter-arguments though. Todd expresses a point of view that should be taken seriously. My worry is that we live in a social media environment in which people don't make arguments anymore. Todd can be a bit rude and insulting at times but most of his comments have real content. Strip away the tone and there's something there with which to contend. Someone has to do it otherwise we're just in an echo chamber.

See, I simply don't think that we get good counter-arguments. We mostly get rhetorical questions about the value of the USA bothering to care about Europe. That's not an argument. Mostly it's a complete unwillingness to accept any of the arguments that others make, about the value of strategic partnerships.

We also get claims that, when challenged or just queried, aren't backed up beyond telling people to go do their own googling. I dispute your claim that there's real content, because over and over when people actually ask for content, they don't get it. Florestan in particular has asked Todd some genuine questions, looking for more information... and Todd simply doesn't give it. He asserts that he's answered the question when it's obvious to all and sundry that he hasn't, and it's really hard to escape the conclusion that the reason he doesn't answer questions is that he can't.

So while I applaud your stance in principle, I genuinely dispute your notion that it's a principle that can be meaningfully applied to this particular 'contributor'. I love a good argument. I stopped reading Todd's posts because at no stage did I have a sense I was going to get one. Frankly, I think you'd be a heck of a lot better at it.

[Herman]

There is no requirement for them to buy US made equipment.  They did agree to spend 2%, so do the nations that doesn't do prove they are not to be trusted?

You seem to be blessed with a very simple mind.

[Todd]

My worry is that we live in a social media environment in which people don't make arguments anymore.

Current social media are among the best propaganda tools ever devised, as is the internet more generally.  Radio, movies, television, and print still have their place, as does the use of what are now called influencers, but nothing in history has allowed for the speed and focus and repetition of messaging, tailored to audience tastes, as exists today.  Political battles to censor modern platforms - old words must be repurposed to suit the new age - will help determine who gets to control propaganda.  George Creel's spirit lives on.

The Finnish army is considered strong by experts, with 280,000 soldiers quite readily available, and 900,000 overall by total mobilization

This is factually inaccurate. 

[Madiel]

See?

"That is factually inaccurate."

All we get is a blunt assertion that someone else's data is wrong. No sources. Heck, we don't even get alternative unsourced figures. I can't compare Todd's data to someone else's to see which is more accurate, or seek an explanation of the discrepancy, because no data was supplied.

I don't see the value add. I really don't. And I wonder where milk sees the value and the content and the interesting argument.

[71 dB]

Russia's Counsellor to the United Nations in Geneva has resigned.

Boris Bondarev: "Never have I been so ashamed of my country."

[Florestan]

This is factually inaccurate.

And yet it's exactly what the Finnish Defence Forces state on their website dedicated to conscription and conscripts:

The Finnish Defence Forces' reserve comprises approximately 900,000 Finnish citizens. The wartime strength of the Finnish Defence Forces is 280,000 soldiers, and this strength is resupplied by other reservists as applicable.

Source: https://intti.fi/en/in-the-reserve