Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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Todd

Quote from: LKB on October 02, 2022, 06:28:02 AM
I posted:

" Next on the list would come the rebuilding of the Russian army. This would take at least a few years, but Putin can wait since he now can legally stay in power essentially  indefinitely. "

Delusion and laziness, you're certainly getting the job done.

A few years is quickly, particularly given the years of buildup and so-called modernization undertaken by the Russians this century followed by the battlefield failures witnessed by the entire world.  You continue to make contrafactual assertions.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus


     
Quote from: BasilValentine on October 02, 2022, 05:14:05 AM
The use of warmongering as a synonym for self-defense is just part of the larger aim of reducing acceptable vocabulary for public discourse down to 800 words. Another example of this enlightened verbal economy is replacing a number of useless expressions like human decency, empathy, tolerance, honesty, etc., with a single expression, virtue-signaling.  ;D   





     I use "warmongering" to detoxify the misuse of the concept. If support for Ukraine is warmongering, let's just say it is and move on. Or you can argue and get dragged into a pointless back and forth over the meaning of words.

     Having settled the issue about words, at least for now, we can put this deflection behind us and discuss the war.
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BasilValentine

#3602
Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2022, 05:21:45 AM

Self-defense applies to Ukraine, not the US, the UK, etc.  The word warmongering very much applies to what US supporters of the war are engaged in.

Get a dictionary. "warmonger - n. a person who advocates, wants, or tries to precipitate war." None of what US citizens or their government are doing by supporting Ukraine in its defense against Russian aggression fits the definition. No one wants it, it's a little late for precipitating, and supporting self defense is not advocating war any more than arming someone under imminent threat of murder is advocating killing.

Todd

Quote from: BasilValentine on October 02, 2022, 07:42:49 AM
Get a dictionary. "warmonger - n. a person who advocates, wants, or tries to precipitate war." None of what US citizens or their government are doing by supporting Ukraine in its defense against Russian aggression fits the definition. No one wants it, it's a little late for precipitating, and supporting self defense is not advocating war any more than arming someone under imminent threat of murder is advocating killing.

Read: Warmonger dislikes word warmonger.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

BasilValentine

Quote from: Todd on October 02, 2022, 08:29:16 AM
Read: Warmonger dislikes word warmonger.

Read: Man responds to his exposed ignorance with idiotic non sequitur.  ;D   

Todd

Quote from: BasilValentine on October 02, 2022, 08:42:32 AM
Read: Man responds to his exposed ignorance with idiotic non sequitur.  ;D

Do you support the US sending military hardware to Ukraine?
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

Quote from: BasilValentine on October 02, 2022, 07:42:49 AM
Get a dictionary. "warmonger - n. a person who advocates, wants, or tries to precipitate war." None of what US citizens or their government are doing by supporting Ukraine in its defense against Russian aggression fits the definition. No one wants it, it's a little late for precipitating, and supporting self defense is not advocating war any more than arming someone under imminent threat of murder is advocating killing.

     Arguments for or against a position stand or fall on their own regardless of the mongering wordplay.

     Arguments for/against supporting Ukraine will have a different flavor in Poland than in the UK. An observer will see a robust overlap. From the US the defense of Europe is seen as worth the cost even if it can not quite be as worth it as it is for Ukraine.

     An odd thing is that some defense opponents say that Ukes are dying because the war is more important to the US than to the Ukes themselves. On this view the US and allies are making the Ukes fight for their country, something they otherwise would not do. However, early in the war there were discussions of how the Ukes would fight from the western half of the country if/when Kiev fell. I understood this was not bluster, and expected it to happen if it came to that. AS far as I know no one pooh-poohed the idea then in spite of the near universal pessimism about the final outcome. The view of Ukes as manipulated by outsiders doesn't hold up. The reality is the Ukes have tried to convince Europeans that helping Ukraine is in their self interest, and they have succeeded  to a greater degree than most observers would have expected on February 23.
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Madiel

Yeah well, months ago Todd tried to imply it was other powers pushing the Ukrainian side of the war rather than the Ukrainians themselves pushing others to give them aid.

It was a stupid point of view then, it's equally stupid now, but that doesn't stop him pushing the same narrative over and over.
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Madiel

I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

drogulus

Quote from: Madiel on October 02, 2022, 01:34:14 PM
Yeah well, months ago Todd tried to imply it was other powers pushing the Ukrainian side of the war rather than the Ukrainians themselves pushing others to give them aid.

It was a stupid point of view then, it's equally stupid now, but that doesn't stop him pushing the same narrative over and over.

     It's stupid to say it because you believe it, yes. I hadn't thought about that angle, though.
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Que

Breakthrough at the Kherson front:


Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus



     The Ukrainian command has told Russian soldiers considering surrender that they will be listed as captured in battle so they can continue to receive benefits due to them and won't be punished for their actions. How did the Ukes get so smart?

     
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Madiel

I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Que

#3615
Quote from: drogulus on October 03, 2022, 03:43:26 PM

     The Ukrainian command has told Russian soldiers considering surrender that they will be listed as captured in battle so they can continue to receive benefits due to them and won't be punished for their actions. How did the Ukes get so smart?

That is smart!

Meanwhile more "wishful thinking" becomes reality on the battle field:






"Fake state" Ukraine is able to fend off one the world's superpowers. Impressive.

Todd

Quote from: Que on October 03, 2022, 11:13:49 PM"Fake state" Ukraine is able to fend off on the world's superpowers. Impressive.

Being able to fend off a superpower or great power (Russia is not a superpower, and has not been since the 90s) is not a unique feat.  Vietnam did it.  Afghanistan did it twice.  (It also fended off the British Empire; stay away from Afghanistan.)  Cuba has done it for over half a century.  If the US and Europe did not fund and arm Ukraine, the successes may be a bit less pronounced.  Or non-existent.  The Russo-Ukrainian War is a proxy war, with Ukraine dependent on unprecedented military and economic support from an external power.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

The WaPo Editorial Board on who blew up the Nordstream pipelines:

Undersea pipeline sabotage demands the West prepare for more attacks

Quote from: WaPo Editorial BoardThe author of this strike against Europe's stability and security was Russia...

Put it all together and the attack looks very much like an attempt to take revenge on countries that have backed Ukraine — a signal to them that more expensive energy supply disruptions might be coming — while preserving plausible deniability.

Granholm, Brennan, Time, now WaPo.  That cinches it: Russia did it.  The West really ought to impose some sanctions, or something, to really give Russia what for.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

milk

So are Putin's days numbered? Isn't it risky to put guns in the hands of thousands of untrained pissed off people? Is the only opposition that's allowed to exist in Russia crazier than Putin? Does Russia have any political institutions that function in Putin's absence or is it just pandemonium once he's out?

Herman

well, those untrained people with guns are shipped fast to Ukraine. They can't get even near the government HQ.

any removal of Putin will have to come from within the elite, and they will have to be able to reach across a very long desk.

or just lock the door to that white and gold hall and throw away the keys.