Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Madiel

I'm wondering at what point Todd will grasp that he is being given a taste of his own tactics.
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Todd

Quote from: absolutelybaching on December 04, 2022, 11:23:53 AMTo point out buffoonery when it stands there in full clown-face?
Sure.
But you are on my ignore list, and I have to click the damn link to see any of your pantaloonish posts. Which is effort, and I don't claim I can maintain the effort, despite your obvious keenness for me to do so.

This is the most entertaining post I have read in quite a while.  More, please.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Gurn Blanston

Let's give it a rest. Maybe we will come to our senses soon and approach the topic like the mature adults I'm sure we all are.

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SimonNZ

Quote from: Todd on December 03, 2022, 12:40:55 PMUnqualified non-professionals like you, BasilValentine, and everyone else on this forum who has so far offered any type of a mental health diagnosis of Putin or anyone else are merely gossiping.  Only clinical psychologists and psychiatrists can offer actual mental health diagnoses.


In future I'd like you to not offer gossipy speculation on the "sleepiness" of politicians, you yourself not being a a professional doctor of sleep disorders, nor having medical testimony on the tiredness or sleep deprivation issues of said politicians.

Herman

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2022, 11:40:10 AMLet's give it a rest. Maybe we will come to our senses soon and approach the topic like the mature adults I'm sure we all are.

🤠

It's just incredible how much time some people will sacrifice to vapid one-upmanship.
Don't feed the troll.

Todd

Explosions rock two Russian airbases far from Ukraine frontline

Looks like the Ukrainians took the words of Edgar Rinkevics to heart.  The war should be over shortly.  Then Putin will be able to tried like in the aftermath of WWII.  Definitely no need to negotiate now. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Fëanor

Quote from: Todd on December 04, 2022, 09:26:40 AMI have also pointed out that the US is directly responsible for establishing the conditions that led to Russia's military actions in Ukraine that began in 2014 (the actions of this February have been mislabeled an invasion), that NATO is the primary non-financial tool the US uses to exercise hegemony over European vassal states ...

This is specious nonsense.

Your statement merely illustrates the you and Putin have unwarranted resentment of the USA's well-earned financial and military power from which Europe has been probably the greatest beneficiary.

Neither the USA nor NATO are in any way provocateurs of Russia's seizure of Ukraine territory in 2014 or invasion in February. Neither has ever been a direct threat to the Soviet Union nor the Russian Federation. Nations in eastern Europe and now Finland and Sweden have been admitted to NATO on their own requests as result of their legitimate fear of the imperialist expansionism of Tsarist Russia, the USSR, and now Russia under Putin. Russia's activities in 2014 and since are entirely due to Putin's romantic vision of a renewal of these historic tendencies.

drogulus

    An uh oh thing is happening. The US imposed Russia protection racket is being undermined by Ukraine, which is using its own long range drones to strike targets deep inside Russia. How dare they? Don't they know what being an instrument of US policy means? Bad Ukes!!
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Todd

Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2022, 10:13:15 AMYour statement merely illustrates the you and Putin have unwarranted resentment of the USA's well-earned financial and military power

Putin may resent US power.  I do not resent US power, not at all.  I relish it.  It's fantastic.  It ensures that even when people are slaughtered by the millions overseas, I am nice and safe, and as long as the US dollar retains reserve currency status, the US federal government enjoys policy options no other country enjoys, including running foolishly large twin deficits for decades on end.  I recognize also that what you describe as "well-earned" means built on genocide, slavery, expansionary warfare, relentless exploitative capitalism in the wake of the Civil War right up through the Gilded Age, and then in the post-war era, on a militarized economy that even a five-star general publicly warned against. 

What I seek is to decrease the militarization of the US economy, US foreign policy, and to substantially rollback US military intervention in the world, and US military commitments.  I know that the US will not enjoy its current advantages forever.  Indeed, relative US power has been declining for decades, and in the wake of the failed unipolar policies of the Bush Administration, the decline has accelerated, and international institutions that constitute the so-called rules-based system have weakened, which is one of the reasons why the US, and by extension its allies, are ever more reliant on military power through military alliances.   


Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2022, 10:13:15 AMNeither the USA nor NATO are in any way provocateurs of Russia's seizure of Ukraine territory in 2014 or invasion in February. Neither has ever been a direct threat to the Soviet Union nor the Russian Federation.

The US and NATO most certainly provoked Russia.  George W Bush publicly suggested that both Georgia and Ukraine join NATO, something even Robert Gates said was going too far.  Obama saw the dangers in Bush's policies and slow-walked various advocated policies, including arming Ukraine, a direct provocation.  Trump and now Biden have both flooded Ukraine with weapons.  One of the more ironic twists of geopolitics in the last decade is how fully Bush policies have been embraced by all manner of people who otherwise claim to despise Bush.


Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2022, 10:13:15 AMNations in eastern Europe and now Finland and Sweden have been admitted to NATO on their own requests as result of their legitimate fear of the imperialist expansionism of Tsarist Russia, the USSR, and now Russia under Putin.

First, neither Sweden nor Finland are officially members of NATO yet, though they will be.  (I would be very happy if Turkey blocks them from joining; there's a fresh story from Reuters today on this topic.)  Second, NATO is controlled by the US, and the expansion of NATO (NATO terms it "enlargement") relies on requests from small, weak powers to join, but NATO is not a democratic institution.  The process is good PR for public consumption.  NATO was explicitly established as a defense against/threat to (they are the same thing) the USSR; it was an alliance against the USSR.  From NATO: "Its purpose was to secure peace in Europe, to promote cooperation among its members and to guard their freedom – all of this in the context of countering the threat posed at the time by the Soviet Union." 


Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2022, 10:13:15 AMRussia's activities in 2014 and since are entirely due to Putin's romantic vision of a renewal of these historic tendencies.

This explicitly requires adherence to the great man theory of history and grossly oversimplifies Russian power structures.  Putin is very powerful, but he does not have the degree of control often misrepresented in the western corporate press, and he does not make decisions independent of actions in the world.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Karl Henning

Quote from: drogulus on December 05, 2022, 11:02:48 AMAn uh oh thing is happening. The US imposed Russia protection racket is being undermined by Ukraine, which is using its own long range drones to strike targets deep inside Russia. How dare they? Don't they know what being an instrument of US policy means? Bad Ukes!!

Moscow says three killed in Ukrainian drone attacks on air bases deep inside Russia
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Madiel

A proportionate response.
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Herman

Quote from: Madiel on December 05, 2022, 02:31:49 PMA proportionate response.

that's obviously going to elicit another destructive response.
remembet the bridge?
too much of this war is about cool new gadgets.

Madiel

#4136
Quote from: Herman on December 05, 2022, 06:41:43 PMthat's obviously going to elicit another destructive response.
remembet the bridge?
too much of this war is about cool new gadgets.

I think it's pretty clear that the Russians feel fine about destroying Ukrainian civilian infrastructure with drones and killing Ukrainian civilians with drones WITHOUT any attacks on Russian military bases.

If the Russians don't wish to be subjected to drone attacks, there's an extremely obvious solution. Send all the Russian troops back to the Russian military bases, and I'm pretty confident the Ukrainians won't attack them.

Otherwise, you're sounding uncomfortably close to Todd, telling the Ukrainians to stop resisting.

It's an appropriate response because it's a military target. So long as there's a war going on, that's fine by me, and as far as I'm concerned it's up to the Russians to stop the war. Although first there's that whole nonsense about denying it's even a war.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Herman

Quote from: Madiel on December 05, 2022, 07:54:16 PMOtherwise, you're sounding uncomfortably close to Todd, telling the Ukrainians to stop resisting.



I'm not telling anyone to do or not do anything. I posted something on a music group, I doubt Zelensky has the time to read this. It's not like we on GMG are obliged to say only the right, supportive things, otherwise Ukraine will lose the war.
What I in essence said is that I feel uncomfortable that war media coverage since Desert Storm in 1990 is predominantly about cool gadgets outsmarting the enemy.

Madiel

#4138
Seriously, you're going to pick on the phrasing? Fine, you're not telling Ukrainians anything.  ???  Thank you for specifically highlighting the irrelevancy of your opinion.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Herman

Quote from: Madiel on December 05, 2022, 10:58:44 PMThank you for specifically highlighting the irrelevancy of your opinion.

Now, who's sounding uncomfortably close to Todd here?