Europe at War

[JBS]

Goodness. 

You explicitly denied that the US withdrew from the INF Treaty.  That's what you wrote.  Replies needn't be laden with obscenities.  That's a lie, nothing but a lie.  Perhaps you can pull yourself together.  Perhaps not.

The US withdrew from the treaty after 2014 and therefore after Russia invaded Ukraine.

Saying US policy is responsible for Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a blatant falsification of events, and deserves every obscenity in English, Ukrainian, and Russian.

[Madiel]

Well, if you insist on bringing DATES into it you can prove anything!

(I am channeling an anecdote from Tovey here, about a woman who told him that one composer was an imitator of another despite the supposed imitator living earlier)

[Que]

Report by the Guardian:

Biden says the US will not provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine

The United States will not provide the F-16 fighter jets that Ukraine has sought in its fight against Russia, President Joe Biden said on Monday.

Ukraine planned to push for western fourth-generation fighter jets such as the F-16 after securing supplies of main battle tanks last week, an adviser to Ukraine's defence minister said on Friday. A Ukrainian air force spokesperson said it would take its pilots about half a year to train on such fighter jets.

Asked if the United States would provide the jets, Biden told reporters at the White House, "No."

[Florestan]

Saying US policy is responsible for Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a blatant falsification of events, and deserves every obscenity in English, Ukrainian, and Russian.

About a week ago I posted an obscenity in Romanian but it was removed together with some other posts I exchanged with Todd. 

[Fëanor]

Report by the Guardian:

Biden says the US will not provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine

The United States will not provide the F-16 fighter jets that Ukraine has sought in its fight against Russia, President Joe Biden said on Monday.

Ukraine planned to push for western fourth-generation fighter jets such as the F-16 after securing supplies of main battle tanks last week, an adviser to Ukraine's defence minister said on Friday. A Ukrainian air force spokesperson said it would take its pilots about half a year to train on such fighter jets.

Asked if the United States would provide the jets, Biden told reporters at the White House, "No."

We might dare hope that Ukraine might receive some Soviet era Jets from, say, Poland.

I'm thinking that the USA is prolonging the war by its hesitancy to provide effective, contemporary equipment in a timely wy.  Its been late providing HIMARs and now Abrams M1 tanks, (better late than never I suppose).

[Todd]

The US withdrew from the treaty after 2014 and therefore after Russia invaded Ukraine.

Yes, and the US withdrew from two treaties after the RAND document was published and before Russia escalated the war last February.  It appears we can agree on chronology.

Do you approve of Trump's decisions to withdraw from the INF Treaty in 2019 and the Open Skies Treaty in 2020?  Do you also approve of George W Bush's withdrawal from the ABM Treaty in 2001?  The sole nuclear arms treaty that remains in effect is New START. 

Withdrawing from nuclear arms control treaties are inherently provocative acts.  The incontrovertible fact is that the USA withdrew from nuclear treaties this century.  Russia did not.  Russian actions in 2014 do not explain US actions on nuclear treaties in 2019 and 2020.  Or are you suggesting that the US had no choice but to abandon the treaties?

Saying US policy is responsible for Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a blatant falsification of events, and deserves every obscenity in English, Ukrainian, and Russian.

No events have been falsified.  The real issue is that you and all pro-war posters on this board have adopted a ridiculously simplistic and entirely false outlook on the war.  The idea that Putin took the decisions he did without warning and without consideration of geopolitical reality, sort of just conjuring a war out of nothing but his own unpleasantness, or whatever, is absurd and laughable.  Vladimir Putin is an autocrat who has committed war crimes, and not just in Ukraine.  He should but won't stand trial in the Hague for his actions.  Russia is the aggressor in this war.  At the same time, the United States established the conditions that led to the war.  Both conditions can and do exist. 

(And this is distinct from the fact that the US has committed war crimes and other crimes against humanity this century that exceed those of Russia, and the same is true in the entire post-war era.)

Biden says the US will not provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine

Good.

[drogulus]

   

Report by the Guardian:

Biden says the US will not provide F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine

The United States will not provide the F-16 fighter jets that Ukraine has sought in its fight against Russia, President Joe Biden said on Monday.

Ukraine planned to push for western fourth-generation fighter jets such as the F-16 after securing supplies of main battle tanks last week, an adviser to Ukraine's defence minister said on Friday. A Ukrainian air force spokesperson said it would take its pilots about half a year to train on such fighter jets.

Asked if the United States would provide the jets, Biden told reporters at the White House, "No."

     Ukraine will get 4th gen planes. They will be F-16s or equivalents, planes that can carry air to air missiles to replace SAMs that are running low. These planes will also attack ground targets with accurate boom boom. In addition they can make it more difficult than ever for Russia to fly over Ukraine.

     Financial Times

Lockheed Martin has said it stands ready to meet demand for its F-16 aircraft as some of Ukraine's closest European allies revive efforts to provide fighter jets to Kyiv.

The decision by the US and Germany to send tanks to Ukraine has reignited discussions, which European defence officials cautioned were at an early stage.

Frank St John, chief operating officer of Lockheed Martin, the largest US defence contractor, told the Financial Times that there was "a lot of conversation about third party transfer of F-16s" — whereby countries would re-export their US jets to Ukraine to defend its airspace. Lockheed is not directly involved in talks regarding the potential delivery of military aircraft to Kyiv.

However, St John said the company was "going to be ramping production on F-16s in Greenville [South Carolina] to get to the place where we will be able to backfill pretty capably any countries that choose to do third-party transfers to help with the current conflict".

     Biden says he won't send F-16s. I believe him. What does Poland say?

     

[Todd]

Another installment of They're saying it publicly.  After Chuck Todd leads in with polls showing declining support for Ukraine, and then also uses loaded and biased language regarding how Afghanistan and Iraq cloud the public's judgment, Bobbie Gates, SecDef for Bush and Obama, states that the President must "educate" the public, must repeat the message "over and over and over again" and that "you have to keep pounding away".  (The fun starts at around 2:06.)  In other words, he's publicly advocating for outright pro-war propaganda at the highest level.  Keep that support up.  I mean, sure, it would be nice if someone at the highest level could articulate American interests in Ukraine, but that really is just asking too much.

Keep fighting.

No negotiations.

[drogulus]

   

     When Putin is ready to leave Ukrainian territory there will be something to negotiate. Only agreements on immediate action matter because nothing Putin signs is worth anything. This obvious fact sets the conditions under which real negotiations can happen.

     If Putin won't negotiate, his troops will continue to die in large numbers. That's a pro negotiation incentive. If Putin is ready to withdraw his troops can stop dying and go home. That seems fair.

     Putin shouldn't keep fighting. He should negotiate. He won't like the terms, but he won't like the outcome if he doesn't.

[Karl Henning]

nothing Putin signs is worth anything. This obvious fact sets the conditions under which real negotiations can happen.

Да, конечно.

[JBS]

Nothing the US has done anywhere in the world has been anywhere half as bad as what Russia has done in Syria.

But if a person refuses to understand that making sure people who start wars don't get any benefit from is in the US's interest (as well as being a basic bit of morality) nothing any of us say will make them understand.

[prémont]

Gentlemen, I wonder why you keep responding to our resident troll's garbage instead of putting him on your ignore lists like I have done.

Well, some of your answers can be quite entertaining, I admit.

[Madiel]

Gentlemen, I wonder why you keep responding to our resident troll's garbage instead of putting him on your ignore lists like I have done.

Well, some of your answers can be quite entertaining, I admit.

It does pass the time in between mongering wars and abusing kittens.

[Todd]

Nothing the US has done anywhere in the world has been anywhere half as bad as what Russia has done in Syria.

Philippines.  Vietnam.   Iraq.

Brown University keeps a running tally of the atrocities committed by the US this century.  You already disputed it, though Brown University is correct and you are incorrect.

You live in an alternate reality.

[Todd]

A compact and informative 8.5 minute interview with Ian Bremmer, President of the Eurasia Group.  The Eurasia Group is a think tank, so as has been established here, everything it produces is gold.

Mr Bremmer supports the West.  Note, though, that he explicitly calls the war a proxy war.  There have been posters on this forum who denied this fact.  Also, starting at about four minutes in, he describes why the economic sanctions have not been as effective as was promised by the bold, strong, and tough leaders of the West.  He does not seem to believe they will be as effective as hoped going forward, and he points out the understandable hesitance to impose secondary sanctions.  He also points out that most of the world does not support the West.  That fact is lost on many people.  He also makes it a point to say that many or most democratic countries in the developing world do not support the West.  That would seem to be important since pro-war propaganda in the West portrays this war as at least partly a war between good and righteous democracies and bad and unholy autocracies. 

Since the target audience for this interview is the investor class, Mr Bremmer must shed the triumphalist pro-war propaganda so beloved by many pro-war folks. 

Ah, who am I kidding, Bremmer is a Putin apologist who is falsifying events.

[71 dB]

Gentlemen, I wonder why you keep responding to our resident troll's garbage instead of putting him on your ignore lists like I have done.

Well, some of your answers can be quite entertaining, I admit.

He acts like a troll in this thread, but his posts are much much better in other threads. I am amazed how good posts he makes in the audio gear thread for example.

[Fëanor]

A compact and informative 8.5 minute interview with Ian Bremmer, President of the Eurasia Group.  The Eurasia Group is a think tank, so as has been established here, everything it produces is gold.

Mr Bremmer supports the West.  Note, though, that he explicitly calls the war a proxy war.  There have been posters on this forum who denied this fact.  Also, starting at about four minutes in, he describes why the economic sanctions have not been as effective as was promised by the bold, strong, and tough leaders of the West.  He does not seem to believe they will be as effective as hoped going forward, and he points out the understandable hesitance to impose secondary sanctions.  He also points out that most of the world does not support the West.  That fact is lost on many people.  He also makes it a point to say that many or most democratic countries in the developing world do not support the West.  That would seem to be important since pro-war propaganda in the West portrays this war as at least partly a war between good and righteous democracies and bad and unholy autocracies. 

Since the target audience for this interview is the investor class, Mr Bremmer must shed the triumphalist pro-war propaganda so beloved by many pro-war folks. 

Ah, who am I kidding, Bremmer is a Putin apologist who is falsifying events.

If you're kidding anyone, it's yourself.

I've heard Brenner's comments on many occasions and I like him for his hard-core realism, though I don't always agree.

Is Ukraine War a proxy war between NATO and Russia, (I almost typed 'the Soviet Union')?  In the first instance, NO, it's a war between Russia and Ukraine.  In fact it's not a 'proxy' war in the usual sense for Russia.  Yes, fairly it is for NATO.  But then NATO -- that is, Europe -- has a lot at stake.  Putin's goal is to render Ukraine into subservience to Russia, and if he wins in Ukraine, it won't be the last place that he targets.  The USA for its part has nothing to gain and lots to loose in case of an eastern Europe under Russia's thumb;  is that American self-interest?  Of course.

The Third World feels it doesn't have as much "skin in the game" as does Europe.  And, true, it doesn't feel it has any more to gain by pleasing the USA than continuing its truck & trade with Russia.  Also true is that the 3rd World in general is no big fan of the USA.  Largely it's that they see US policy as self-interested and self-seeking, (who'd have thought?);  partially also it's simple resentment of American power.

Bremmer raises the issue of the US' relationship with Israel which has always been and remains uncritical of that country in any substantive way.  Bremmer with pin-point accuracy attributes the success of the "Abraham Accords" on ME regional players seeing Iran as their major threat and Israel, pragmatically, as a ally in that game.  (I have suggested that  USA ought seek some sort of detente with Iran as practical way to ease pressure among ME adversaries;  this unlikely to happen of course.)

[JBS]

Gentlemen, I wonder why you keep responding to our resident troll's garbage instead of putting him on your ignore lists like I have done.

Well, some of your answers can be quite entertaining, I admit.

Unfortunately putting him on ignore would mean missing his posts in the New Releases and other music threads.

[Todd]

In the first instance, NO, it's a war between Russia and Ukraine.

No, it's a proxy war between the US and Russia.  Internationalists might prefer to say it is a proxy war between NATO and Russia.  Mr Bremmer does.

Mr Bremmer is just one more analyst who points out that based on data the economic war is not as successful as warmongers proclaim, that there are limits to what can be done in the realm, and that the West does not enjoy global support.  Typically, white majority countries will poo-poo the developing world.  (Your use of the now long out of favor phrase Third World indicates that you are out of touch.  I'm guessing you are elderly.)  That is to be expected and misses some of the larger developments coming out of this war. 

The Israel stuff does not concern me.

The USA for its part has nothing to gain and lots to loose in case of an eastern Europe under Russia's thumb;  is that American self-interest?  Of course.

What precisely does it have to gain and what does it stand to lose?

Unfortunately putting him on ignore would mean missing his posts in the New Releases and other music threads.

Life is about choices.

[pjme]

Unfortunately putting him on ignore would mean missing his posts in the New Releases and other music threads.

 On the contrary: It is easy to ignore!