Everyone fires Valery Gergiev

[MusicTurner]

(...)
Back to the personal level, I've gotta go now because I'm joining a group of Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian friends and colleagues for dinner at somebody's house, after which we're going to watch the Criterion Collection DVD of La Dolce Vita. Just another day in America's most Slavic metro area.

That's interesting.

[Brian]

Name one such American musician, please.

Yes, that is my point (that there are few or none such). 

[Mirror Image]

I read Brian's longer post to Archaic Torso of Apollo with great interest. I didn't support Bush's invasion of Iraq nor do I obviously support what Putin has done. Both men are wrong and, perhaps not in this life, but both men will pay for what they have done.

[Brian]

No, it isn't. It's very much like the anti-German hysteria during World War I.

No. In World War I, at least in America, anti-German sentiment went against all German people everywhere, not just against the Kaiser and his minions. It went so far that most Americans of German descent actively buried their heritages. A German immigrant in Chicago was lynched by a mob. Other Germans were thrown in prison or labor camps because of their identity. Libraries banned or burned German books. At the time, 25% of American students studied in German in school because German was our second-most spoken language. But during the war, almost every German class was permanently cancelled.

To this day, 100 years later, the country has almost no German restaurants, most of them very old fashioned. German is an unpopular school class, too; it's beaten by Spanish, French, Mandarin, and ASL. German culture was essentially permanently cleansed from American society and Germans forced to become "normal" Anglo white people.

Absolutely nothing like that is happening today. Russian books are not being burned. Russian people are not being murdered. On the contrary, I have seen an outpouring of sympathy for ordinary Russian Americans, most of whom are here because they chose to leave Russia. The only documented incident I have heard of is a local Russian grocery here in Texas that removed "Russian" from its sign after getting a threatening phone call. Sad? Yes. Similar to 1917? No way.

[Artem]

Gergiev has been an official personal representative of the Russian President during presidential elections since at least 2012. He's supported all major international acts that were condemned by the West. And now people are outraged? What about the European music industry that supported him up until now, musicians that played under him?

[Artem]

I absolutely agree. But, unfortunately, the political beliefs in Gergiev's case have been homophobia and war for the past decade or so. 

[Brian]

Plus I've read that some ensembles are cancelling performances of Russian composers who have nothing at all to do with the current situation. Even poor little Russian cats are being banned from cat shows. It's silly.

I have not heard/read any such news stories (although I did once watch a documentary about Canadian cat shows so I know they are a real thing) but yes, if Tchaikovsky or Russian Blue cats are being canceled, that would be stupid, I agree.

As mentioned repeatedly above, Gergiev is active in Russian politics and government and has personally benefited with awards, appointments, etc. from his political connections. That makes him very different from a cat.

[Artem]

Well if that goes against your beliefs, don't listen to him. But saying nobody else can or should listen to what you determine is the work of a war-loving "homophobe" is no less authoritarian in approach than Putin.

I don't have an issue with people listening to him at all, because it is a personal choice. I just think that the reaction against him is a bit late.

[Mirror Image]

I don't have an issue with people listening to him at all, because it is a personal choice. I just think that the reaction against him is a bit late.

Better late than never.

[Brian]

So where do you stop? If ultra-conservative Republicans are elected in a massive "red wave" in the US come November, would their followers be justified in rooting out every prominent person who holds to center-left beliefs? Was the blacklisting of suspected (or maybe actual, in some cases) communists in 1950s Hollywood justified? There were Stalin apologists in the US up until Stalin's death and even some now. Was their persecution justified?

I don't understand the question.

I guess what you are saying is that there is a slippery slope between "punish supporters of a violent, murderous dictator" and "punish holders of any political opinion"?

[Brian]

Exactly. I remember Trump being regarded a dictator too. Why not target his supporters?

I guess my answer would be that if we are concerned about a slippery slope, a standard comes in handy. Putin has now been here for 20 years. He's actually started two previous wars invading Ukraine and Georgia, and nobody called on Gergiev to condemn those. The entire world's tipping point was, apparently, an unprovoked war of conquest, built on blatant lies, deliberately targeting civilian populations for death.

It seems to me that restraint was applied in the case of this serial warmonger. You might be the only person who has argued that the standard for shunning his allies was met too soon, rather than too late.

Also, you're still, after repeated explanations, missing the distinction between a supporter and an active party.

[JBS]

To many there's no difference. To support is to be an active participant. If I'm not mistaken neither Gergiev nor Netrebko are government officials responsible for carrying out policy.

But they've publicly and purposefully supported the Putin regime's actions in the past.
Granted, Netrebko's support was not as flamboyant as Gergiev, and she tried to straddle the fence, which he hasn't.

Meanwhile...
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/mar/07/impossible-bolshoi-music-director-tugan-sokhiev-quits-over-calls-to-denounce-ukraine-invasion

[Spotted Horses]

Exactly. I remember Trump being regarded a dictator too. Why not target his supporters?

I do not know any serious person who regarded Trump as a "dictator." He openly expressed admiration for ruthless dictators such as Kim Jong-Un and Putin, and perhaps he aspired to be a fascist dictator of sorts, but he was still constrained by Democracy and his own ineptness. But it wouldn't suprise me to learn that performers who blatantly supported his attempt to subvert the election through violence and fraud would find many profession opportunities closed to them. There is nothing new about this. The Dixie Chicks had their careers more or less destroyed when they express political opinions vehemently opposed to George W. Bush's intervention in Iraq. That would have made them heroes in some circles, but not in country music.

I have often heard it said that Gergiev was a an active supporter of Putin, but this is hearsay to me. I have never read any direct political statement of Gergiev. I have heard the unsubstantiated rumor (from industry people) that he is a musical fraud and that he has no involvement in his musical performances except to show up at the concert and wave the baton. I'm not sure that would make a huge difference to me if I liked the performances. If he was a performer of great importance to me I would have to do some due diligence to decide whether his political activities are offensive enough to personally boycott him. I boycott him out of indifference. I assume that the organizations which have fired him have done so mainly because they think their audience expects them to do so, and they don't want to have angry demonstrations at their concerts.

[MusicTurner]

It's fairly easy to find material regarding Gergiev's political views and previous 'politicization of music'. This surely didn't take long:

2022 - no comments on Russia-Ukraine war

2016 - Palmyra propaganda concert, after bombings; Putin on video link https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/valery-gergiev-palmyra-syria-concert/

2014 - backs Crimea annexation https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-xpm-2014-mar-12-la-et-cm-putin-ukraine-crimea-valery-gergiev-20140312-story.html

2013 - controversies regarding Russian anti-gay laws https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/06/russian-conductor-antigay-london-symphony

2012 - appears in pro-Putin commercial https://www.wqxr.org/story/190227-valery-gergiev-appears-putin-campaign-commercial

2008 - South Ossetia propaganda concert https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/21/georgia.russia2

Also: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/valery-gergiev-and-the-nightmare-of-music-under-putin

etc. He has been a stern supporter of all of Putin's previous invasions/wars.

[Florestan]

Do you want to hurt Putin? Stop buying Russian oil.

And Russian gas. I doubt we'll ever see such a move, though.

[Szykneij]

The Bolshoi Theatre's music director and principal conductor Tugan Sokhiev has announced his resignation, saying he felt under pressure due to calls to take a position on the war in Ukraine.

On Tuesday, star conductor Valery Gergiev, a Kremlin loyalist, was stripped of his role at the Munich Philharmonic for failing to denounce Russia's actions.
Sokhiev comes from the same North Ossetia region of Russia as Gergiev and is considered to be his protege.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pressed-on-ukraine-war-bolshoi-conductor-tugan-sokhiev-resigns/ar-AAUHqRE?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

[Spotted Horses]

Which was also wrong. What's your point?

My point is only that any entertainer who make a strong political point risks alienating their audience.

Personally I respect the Dixie Chicks for following their consciences regarding the Iraq war. It cost them financially, they lost part of their audience, and they had to endure years of death threats and abuse. They accepted the consequences and found a new way forward.

Gergiev, apparently, was an active booster of Putin, including his most despicable acts, and accepted support and patronage from Putin and his government. If you think Gergiev doesn't deserve to be shunned it can only be because you think his support of Putin is noble and worthy of respect. He cast his lot with Putin, so he will have to make a new way, which will mean retreating to the Marinsky Theater and limiting his activities to Putin's pariah nation.

I don't think Russian performers in general deserve the same treatment if they have not been active in politics.

[Brian]

Well, this is a new one: Delos Productions just sent out an email announcing a new CD with Olga Kern, and it starts with a letter from Kern about the war and her Ukrainian heritage, and then goes straight into PR for the new CD.

"Please stop this madness! Please say NO to war!

- Olga"

followed immediately by album artwork, press materials, a free track download, and the link to request a free promo CD. 

[Brian]

It seems clear that your project in this thread is to make "support for Putin's invasion of Ukraine" out to be merely an unpopular political opinion. The content or meaning or moral underpinning of the opinion does not matter to you, so long as it is unpopular, which is why, right now, you're making a direct comparison between people punished for supporting mass violence, and people punished for opposing it.

I assume, since your interest is in supporting free expression of all manner of unpopular opinions, that you are neutral on the opinions themselves.

The problem is that there can be a slippery slope in both directions. You have repeatedly pressed the point that punishing someone for their views is a slippery slope, because one moment we may be punishing people who support violent wars of invasion, and the next moment we may be punishing people who, say, belong to a minority political party. But you have not addressed the other slippery slope, that if we do not condemn wars of invasion, there's no use in ever condemning anything, and we might as well allow free expression to include hate speech, advocacy for mass murder, etc.

[Brian]

I can condemn a war of invasion without demanding that anyone be fired, blacklisted, censored or silenced...

Good, now perhaps read up on the artist in question's active involvement in propaganda campaigns, political advertising, acceptance of jobs in occupied territories, acceptance of awards and career assistance from the invader, etc.

It's fairly easy to find material regarding Gergiev's political views and previous 'politicization of music'. This surely didn't take long:

2022 - no comments on Russia-Ukraine war

2016 - Palmyra propaganda concert, after bombings; Putin on video link https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/valery-gergiev-palmyra-syria-concert/

2014 - backs Crimea annexation https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-xpm-2014-mar-12-la-et-cm-putin-ukraine-crimea-valery-gergiev-20140312-story.html

2013 - controversies regarding Russian anti-gay laws https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/nov/06/russian-conductor-antigay-london-symphony

2012 - appears in pro-Putin commercial https://www.wqxr.org/story/190227-valery-gergiev-appears-putin-campaign-commercial

2008 - South Ossetia propaganda concert https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/21/georgia.russia2

Also: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/valery-gergiev-and-the-nightmare-of-music-under-putin

etc. He has been a stern supporter of all of Putin's previous invasions/wars.