Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op. 2b (Sinfonia Solenne)

[relm1]

It is sometimes easier to start over than to fix something.  This sentence "It's becoming clear that what *I* want to express in a piece of music may not be what *the music* wants to express." reminds me of Vaughan Williams' quote: "I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant."

[krummholz]

Well, to be accurate it's really the opposite of "what I meant" - in that "what I meant" turns out to NOT be what I was writing all along. I just wish this had been clear to me earlier. It should have been, I think, ever since I first orchestrated it - the orchestral version feels darker than the strings-only version. The original ending was definitely wrong for it, something another occasional poster here pointed out.

I was actually reminded of "Es muss sein? Ja, es muss sein!"

The new epilogue is at least in the correct idiom, and also alludes to ideas from earlier in the piece, placing them in a new context.

[lunar22]

look forward to listening. Certainly I knew and was involved in discussions on your original string version but I don't think I was on this forum when you posted the symphony version. Certainly both endings seem to have given you some problems -- I am not immune to such thoughts myself (in my recent 13th quartet, I considerably extended the coda, introducing a new theme which is arguably the most inspired moment in the entire work so it can pay to tinker around)

[krummholz]

look forward to listening. Certainly I knew and was involved in discussions on your original string version but I don't think I was on this forum when you posted the symphony version. Certainly both endings seem to have given you some problems -- I am not immune to such thoughts myself (in my recent 13th quartet, I considerably extended the coda, introducing a new theme which is arguably the most inspired moment in the entire work so it can pay to tinker around)

I'm not sure - I abandoned the string version after I started orchestrating the work - then called Sinfonia Solenne - in spring 2022. Have we been in contact that long?

I never changed the ending to the string version. What prompted all the changes was the horn's final DSCH that I originally intended to help resolve things into C major. All of the endings that you objected to were of the orchestral version, I think.

[lunar22]

perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me then and maybe on the other forum (which died and was resurrected), I did indeed comment on the orchestral version.

[krummholz]

And YES to tinkering! In this new version, right at the final climax in the Coda, I tweaked a bass line, turning it into the inversion of the main fugue subject. But that also *weakens* the C major resolution somehow, preserving the sense of the dominant. I'm not sure why - the two new notes are C and D - but it's exactly what I wanted, as the new epilogue begins by reinforcing the F minor / C major ambiguity.

[krummholz]

Unexpectedly, I think this may be done. May be. There are some places in the new epilogue I want to sleep on before committing to a rendering: a couple of descending chromatic modulations that I'm not quite sure are idiomatic, though they're expressive and feel necessary to resolve the argument.

[krummholz]

Too soon, I think. The new material still seems to inhabit a slightly different sound world - a late Romantic one at that. It's also more chamber-like, with less of the hymnlike quality that the rest of the piece has. It's actually good stuff - just still not Sinfonia Solenne.

[krummholz]

Well I'm dead in the water. Opened Sibelius to do some more work, then realized that I didn't have my headphones plugged in, which messes up my audio engine settings in the app. So I quit, plugged the headphones in, and tried to restart. Now the cursor just spins and spins and I have to Force Quit the app. It's not the .sib file - even starting the app cold with no .sib file behaves the same way. I tried rebooting the computer, reinstalling Sibelius, nada. I even purchased a one-time technical support case with Avid, but the promised telephone call appears to be unobtainium since they do NOT give you a phone number to call. Maybe you only get the phone number if you have a support subscription, but I sure couldn't glean that from their disclaimer.

I may be screwed on this computer. The only thing I haven't tried is completely de-installing Sibelius, and that's because I don't know how to do that.

[krummholz]

Saved by a stroke of luck... I hadn't been informed of a new Sibelius update, but when I went to Avid Link to see if there were any updates to my case, there it was. So I tried installing the update, and it works.

I hadn't deleted anything new that I wasn't already sure wasn't the source of the problem, so this "fix" is as mysterious as the original problem. I really, really, don't trust software like this, and Avid's non-support - even for customers who not only have an active paid subscription but paid extra for a support call - is really substandard in ANY field. The wasted support code cost me only $30, but still... it's the principle of the thing.

(And no, there were no updates to my case. Maybe in a few weeks someone will get back to me.)

[lunar22]

sounds like with at sort of experience it's time to finally switch to Dorico. The team support is excellent there and costs nothing. Anyway, I'm glad that after your adventures you're back on track.

[krummholz]

Ha! I expected you to say that! And you could be right. I've been thinking about it. Any word on support for glissandi?

[krummholz]

BTW I received an email late yesterday from an Avid tech, who gave me a list of steps to try to fix it, some (but not all) of which I had already tried. Well, at least they did get back to me fairly quickly.

[lunar22]

Ha! I expected you to say that! And you could be right. I've been thinking about it. Any word on support for glissandi?

And you were right 
Anyway yes, glissandi (through pitch bend as in Sibelius) have been supported now for several months in Dorico. From Sib. you could get a crossgrade price (as you probably know)

[krummholz]

And you were right 
Anyway yes, glissandi (through pitch bend as in Sibelius) have been supported now for several months in Dorico. From Sib. you could get a crossgrade price (as you probably know)

I might do that at some point, then. At the moment I don't want to switch notation systems in the middle of working on this piece. And generally, I wonder if Dorico can read and import Sibelius scores?

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Saved by a stroke of luck... I hadn't been informed of a new Sibelius update, but when I went to Avid Link to see if there were any updates to my case, there it was. So I tried installing the update, and it works.

I hadn't deleted anything new that I wasn't already sure wasn't the source of the problem, so this "fix" is as mysterious as the original problem. I really, really, don't trust software like this, and Avid's non-support - even for customers who not only have an active paid subscription but paid extra for a support call - is really substandard in ANY field. The wasted support code cost me only $30, but still... it's the principle of the thing.

(And no, there were no updates to my case. Maybe in a few weeks someone will get back to me.)

Well, I'm glad that you're able to work--at least for the short term. 

PD

[lunar22]

I might do that at some point, then. At the moment I don't want to switch notation systems in the middle of working on this piece. And generally, I wonder if Dorico can read and import Sibelius scores?

Dorico cannot read Sibelius scores directly but it can read MusicXML fairly efficiently. After all, I converted dozens of Sibelius scores to Dorico without major headaches. I only still have Sibelius installed at all for the rare occasions I a) need to directly test some functionality in Sib v Dorico such as NotePerformer or b) there is a score in Sibelius to look at.

[krummholz]

Sometimes, less is more. What was needed was not a second coda, but a laconic postscript to clinch the key of C (minor). I will probably still tweak and polish this some, but this is the general idea.

I'm posting only the full score and audio file because over the last six months or so I made multiple small changes of detail throughout the score. If anyone only wants to hear the Coda, that begins at about 25:37, letter JJ in the score.

The draft score is raw Sibelius and may well be unreadable in places due to lousy auto-formatting. I need to clean it up.

Audio file

Draft score

[lunar22]

Every time you come up with a new ending, I become more and more convinced that the major established a minute before the end should form the basis of the coda -- in fact something already sprang to mind (something Swedish -- I think it was Alfven's 2nd) as to how I would continue it. Perhaps I'm scared of gloomy endings although for several works in a row the ending was ambiguous at best after some pretty bleak stuff and of course it's your piece!

But eventually you'll have to move onto something else -- there's nothing to stop you coming back to it!

[krummholz]

Every time you come up with a new ending, I become more and more convinced that the major established a minute before the end should form the basis of the coda -- in fact something already sprang to mind (something Swedish -- I think it was Alfven's 2nd) as to how I would continue it. Perhaps I'm scared of gloomy endings although for several works in a row the ending was ambiguous at best after some pretty bleak stuff and of course it's your piece!

But eventually you'll have to move onto something else -- there's nothing to stop you coming back to it!

Well, I've been *trying* to end the Coda in C major since I first drafted the work back in 2020. The strings-only version is not as dark, and ends defiantly - that sort-of works. But I couldn't make the defiant ending quite work in the orchestral version (you yourself agreed), so I tried three different major-key endings, all resigned in mood. The problem is that C major isn't really established at the die away after the big climax. It still feels like the dominant of F minor. Without extending the coda too much (and I've come to believe anything beyond a brief postscript is too much), the only modulation that works is to C minor. I wish I could come up with a very short passage, starting maybe strings only, that resolves into C major and feels convincing, but so far I cannot.