Comfort Zone --- Good or Bad?

Started by Florestan, June 11, 2022, 08:37:03 AM

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Florestan

Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 10:17:58 AM
Given cultural differences between the US and Romania there are parts of it that would not be as salient to you, anyway. 

I'm sure this is the case --- and I have my own example(s): Enescu's First Rhapsody is certainly not as salient to you as it is to me, nor is his Impressions d'enfance.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brian

By the way, once you get past the "good or bad" debate, this is a really great idea for a thread. It is interesting to see how different people approach their comfort zones, how much they stay inside or outside of them, and how they feel about them.

Florestan

Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:25:46 AM
It is interesting to see how different people approach their comfort zones, how much they stay inside or outside of them, and how they feel about them.

This is exactly what I meant.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:23:09 AMWillingness to try new things correlates with a lot of different things - political views, lifestyle, food preferences, travel.

I'd like to see the academic findings here, and also how "openness" is defined.  I am naturally skeptical of such studies, at least as it pertains to individuals.  Group behavior is something else.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:23:09 AM
Willingness to try new things correlates with a lot of different things - political views, lifestyle, food preferences, travel.

Politically-wise, I am a conservative liberal.

Lifestyle-wise, I'm happily married with child.

Food-wise, I like pretty much everything I've tasted so far.

Travel-wise, I've visited most European countries.

Music-wise, my comfort zone is 1700-1900.

Correlate that!  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brian

Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 10:29:24 AM
I'd like to see the academic findings here, and also how "openness" is defined.  I am naturally skeptical of such studies, at least as it pertains to individuals.  Group behavior is something else.
Well, of course, academic findings are paywalled, but here's one that claims it would have related info. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780080970868250721

(Ultimately, I just went to Google the same way anyone else in this thread would. I also found this "Psychology Today" article suggesting that somebody has studied/linked the trait to "more imaginative sexual fantasies.")

Brian

Quote from: philoctetes on June 11, 2022, 10:57:32 AM
To get most academic articles, you can simply use sci-hub.st, or if you need one, just email me, as I am a professor, and likely have access to that journal through my university.

The study is quite solid though. :)

Here's a more recent open access study (2021): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1002/per.2271

This one isn't as solid, but is also from 2021: https://www.scitepress.org/Papers/2018/100031/100031.pdf
Oh fun, thanks! Opening these to read this afternoon.

My brother and girlfriend are at major research institutions too and have made standing offers to forward me studies/papers. I just don't put a lot of work into internet arguments  ;D

Todd

Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:50:13 AMUltimately, I just went to Google the same way anyone else in this thread would. I also found this "Psychology Today" article suggesting that somebody has studied/linked the trait to "more imaginative sexual fantasies."

I took a quick glance at the Psychology Today link, and a couple of the lines did not instill much confidence, such as:

"People with low levels of openness prefer familiar routines, people, and ideas; they can be perceived as closed-minded."

"Levels of openness do vary by location. Within the U.S., people on the coasts are typically rated as more open than those in the middle of the country. Likewise, people who live on the coasts are more liberal, and people who live in the midwest are more conservative."


The longer study philoctetes linked may be more helpful.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Jo498

There is an joke that unfortunately only works in German but you guys probably have all been so eager for years to expand the comfort zone that major European languages should long have been conquered, because it's hard to fathom what one might miss if one cannot read the major works of Goethe or Schiller, understand the lyrics of the romantic lieder and Wagner operas. How could one remain seriously restricted in his aesthetic experiences for lack of language skills?

"Wer für alles offen ist, ist nicht ganz dicht." He who is open to everything, is not quite tight. "nicht ganz dicht sein" meaning "to have lost some marbles", "a screw loose".

(I don't put much stock into the psychological research mentioned above but I would not be surprised if there was a point when "openness to new experiences" transitions into a pathological condition, of course almost any trait can be exaggerated into a pathological condition (this is also the core of the Aristotelian idea of virtue being "golden mean" between two vices mentioned above) but clearly the powers dominating our media and culture have some idea which traits should be exaggerated and which ones ridiculed or pathologized (more openness probably means open to more consumer goods, so let's promote it).

Cognitive capacity, time and funds are limited. If I lose an hour trying to be open to something I am bored or repulsed by, I cannot listen to Beethoven during this hour or do something else I enjoy. If I am repulsed by something after a few seconds, like rap, I will not make effort. Not everything is worth an effort, even less an extended effort. One will not always realize quickly every case of wasted effort but having a developed taste is roughly equivalent to being reasonably quick in picking, choosing and avoiding.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Todd

Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2022, 01:08:42 PMIf I am repulsed by something after a few seconds, like rap, I will not make effort. Not everything is worth an effort, even less an extended effort. One will not always realize quickly every case of wasted effort but having a developed taste is roughly equivalent to being reasonably quick in picking, choosing and avoiding.

People can rationalize anything, like dismissing entire genres or categories based on the most fleeting of experiences.  That's fine.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Spotted Horses

When I started listening to classical music I listened mostly to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms. They were new to me. As I became familiar with the principal works of these composers I branched out to other composers (Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc) and to a wider variety of works by the composers I already knew. It didn't stop me from returning to my core composers and works. When I look at my habits now, nothing has changed. I have composers and works that I return to with a feeling that I am revisiting things I have already internalized, and I listen to new composers and new works. It's just that my footprint of core composers and works is bigger, and music outside my core is farther out in the weeds of the classical repertoire. But I have always mixed revisiting familiar things with trying out new things. The idea that I "should" go outside my "comfort zone" of familiar composers and works strikes me as absurd. I do it because I enjoy it.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Florestan

Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2022, 01:08:42 PM
Cognitive capacity, time and funds are limited. If I lose an hour trying to be open to something I am bored or repulsed by, I cannot listen to Beethoven during this hour or do something else I enjoy. If I am repulsed by something after a few seconds, like rap, I will not make effort. Not everything is worth an effort, even less an extended effort. One will not always realize quickly every case of wasted effort but having a developed taste is roughly equivalent to being reasonably quick in picking, choosing and avoiding.

This pretty much sums up my own position.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

Comfort comes in degrees. I wonder if I can define a chain of musics which starts with Mozart and ends with Lachenmann or Xenakis, each link in the chain giving rise to a small, maybe almost imperceptible, change in comfort.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

#33
I've purposely avoided Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et. al. My stance against the "collective wisdom" of many long-time listeners who revere these composers and tell me I should, too, hasn't changed at all. Quite frankly, I don't care who the "important" composers are and never will. The first two composers I seriously got into were Bartók and Ives, which are definitely not composers most people would recommend checking out first, but I was drawn to their music. And it's this attitude that has lead to many great discoveries. I personally believe that listeners should travel outside of their comfort zones more often because there are an inordinate amount of composers who I feel deserve as much attention as the well-established composers that everyone knows and you won't find this out if all you do is "play it safe". I wouldn't have found Weinberg or Zemlinsky for example if all I did was listen to the composers that I love all the time --- not there would be anything wrong with this, but, for me, I'm a naturally curious person and I had to find out what else is out there. But, we're all different and we all have found composers that we love, it's just that some people stop exploring at a certain point while others enjoy finding new composers. I suppose nowadays I would fall somewhere in the middle: I like my comfort zone, but I do get the itch to find new composers as well. Oh and FYI, I do love Beethoven in particular his late SQs and symphonies, but really as far back as I go with classical music is Berlioz. :)

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2022, 06:25:30 AM
Comfort comes in degrees. I wonder if I can define a chain of musics which starts with Mozart and ends with Lachenmann or Xenakis, each link in the chain giving rise to a small, maybe almost imperceptible, change in comfort.

Sort of like the proverbial frog in a kettle. I can't say, I haven't reached Xenakis yet. :)
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Mandryka

Mozart a little night music
Mozart Don Giovanni overture
Mozart 608
Beethoven 133
Liszt big bad sonata
Messiaen 20 regards
Lachenmann serynade


Easy peasy.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2022, 06:29:21 AM
Sort of like the proverbial frog in a kettle. I can't say, I haven't reached Xenakis yet. :)

It's easier with Xenakis. You're a yank, so you probably don't know The Goons and Spike Milligan. The Ying Tong Song. You'll love It. Listen first to this


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=33-fVsL5Kdc

And now try this extraordinary piece of stochastically  composed late Xenakis

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmi2EVb7kQU
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Karl Henning

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 11, 2022, 10:57:25 PM
When I started listening to classical music I listened mostly to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms. They were new to me. As I became familiar with the principal works of these composers I branched out to other composers (Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc) and to a wider variety of works by the composers I already knew. It didn't stop me from returning to my core composers and works. When I look at my habits now, nothing has changed. I have composers and works that I return to with a feeling that I am revisiting things I have already internalized, and I listen to new composers and new works. It's just that my footprint of core composers and works is bigger, and music outside my core is farther out in the weeds of the classical repertoire. But I have always mixed revisiting familiar things with trying out new things. The idea that I "should" go outside my "comfort zone" of familiar composers and works strikes me as absurd. I do it because I enjoy it.

Exactly.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2022, 06:26:44 AM
I've purposely avoided Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et. al.
Whatever the rationale, it's just your loss. While of course you're at liberty to listen to (or ignore) what composers you please soever, there is in fact no inherent virtue in contrarianism: what matters is the result. Ask the guy on Wall Street.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

#39
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2022, 06:57:07 AM
Whatever the rationale, it's just your loss. While of course you're at liberty to listen to (or ignore) what composers you please soever, there is in fact no inherent virtue in contrarianism: what matters is the result. Ask the guy on Wall Street.

It's not contrarianism, Karl. I've avoided these composers with the exception of Beethoven, because I'm not drawn to their music, so it's not my loss at all. I explore and listen to music I want and when I want. Nobody will tell me otherwise.