Would anyone here like to participate in this?

[coffee]

Sorry, but I don't have enough time, and when one's taste has become somewhat solid through a lot of listening of all genres, such very long lists often appear of less interest (I own music by about 100 of these lastly listed composers, and there are certainly many goodies on that list). But TC seems to be the place for them to flourish - and this pretty overwhelmingly.

Also, when seeing the long alphabetical list, and taking a look at the first A-composers, I disagree with many of the work selections - which is rather typical and, in a way, personally frustrating.

What do you mean you disagree with the work selections? That's the lowest tier ("the bottom of the barrel"). Most (maybe all) of those composers have works on higher tiers.

Edit:

I just realized that perhaps you actually viewed the alphabetical list rather than the works from the lowest tier. If so, first of all, thank you for taking at least that much time.

But even if you did that, I still wonder what you mean by disagreeing with the selections? Do you mean that they should not have been recommended at all or that other works should have been recommended?

[coffee]

I don't think it is an issue of superiority but of difference. There is real value in different forums having their own flavour, and enjoying those differences without rancour or partisanship.

For me, this list carries less personal interest. I know lots of traditionally well-known works will top the poll in the same way that Classic FM will always celebrate certain pieces. Many of the works I enjoy most don't even appear on this list, and if they did, wouldn't rate in the 'top tiers'. Doesn't necessarily say anything about their quality. Holmboe symphonies and SQs, Simpson, Peter Maxwell Davies to name just three from a host of glaring omissions.

Edit:

It is always nice to see quieter or less active members posting in the music areas at GMG. It would be nice to see you sharing the music you love, coffee, and contributing your own likes. It can be harder to gain traction in a community when inflammatory language starts to appear.

The entire point of this is to share the music you enjoy most, so what I am asking you to do is to add those "glaring omissions" to our list and help us decide which to recommend more highly.

As you can see, right now we've got Holmboe's 8th symphony, Four Symphonic Metamorphoses, violin concerto, and the trio for Recorder, cello and harpsichord. What do you recommend we add next?

And in order to be most helpful, you can't just say something like "all of them." You have to nominate and promote specific works.

We have Simpson's clarinet quintet and 9th symphony. What specific works do you recommend we add next?

We have about a dozen of PMD's works, so what additional specific works do you recommend we add next?

[coffee]

I don't think it is an issue of superiority but of difference. There is real value in different forums having their own flavour, and enjoying those differences without rancour or partisanship.

I had comments like this in mind:

My opinion is that the good folks at TC are mostly teenagers / youngsters who have only recently discovered "classical music", ie mostly Beethoven and Mahler. GMG is vastly more sophisticated, being to TC what calculus is to arithmetic. 

However, I don't actually care about the differences between the fora or anything like that. I am actually surprised to see this become an issue. I don't believe either forum is likely to be consistently superior to the other. I've been active at TC for over a decade during which the membership has almost completely rolled over several times, moderating policies have changed, features have been added and subtracted, and so on, so it's not really one thing or another. I assume the same is true here. Anyway, I don't care.

What I'd actually like is to improve the recommendations, and my intent was to use claims like this just quoted about how much better the people here are than the people at TC simply to encourage people to share their knowledge.

Sadly for me, it appears that there is no appetite for that here. I may apparently have to proceed without your help.

Though I am not yet giving up.

There was no enthusiasm at TC for this either when I first started it back in 2010. The amazon board received it (c. 2008) without complaint.

[Mandryka]

The entire point of this is to share the music you enjoy most, so what I am asking you to do is to add those "glaring omissions" to our list and help us decide which to recommend more highly.

As you can see, right now we've got Holmboe's 8th symphony, Four Symphonic Metamorphoses, violin concerto, and the trio for Recorder, cello and harpsichord. What do you recommend we add next?

And in order to be most helpful, you can't just say something like "all of them." You have to nominate and promote specific works.

We have Simpson's clarinet quintet and 9th symphony. What specific works do you recommend we add next?

We have about a dozen of PMD's works, so what additional specific works do you recommend we add next?

Why is this so important to you?

[MusicTurner]

What do you mean you disagree with the work selections? That's the lowest tier ("the bottom of the barrel"). Most (maybe all) of those composers have works on higher tiers.

Edit:

I just realized that perhaps you actually viewed the alphabetical list rather than the works from the lowest tier. If so, first of all, thank you for taking at least that much time.

But even if you did that, I still wonder what you mean by disagreeing with the selections? Do you mean that they should not have been recommended at all or that other works should have been recommended?

Yes, concerning disagreeing with the works list, I meant the long list of 6503 works. Obviously, there are many fine selections I'd agree with there, but also many alternatives I'd prefer in stead, or composers I'd miss. So, in my case and without counting, a large number would be a source of some frustration, if deciding to take the whole thing seriously, since these differences don't tend to change. One's taste can - sometimes - be an island, facing a collective.

Sorry about sounding negative; but just an explanation.

[coffee]

Why is this so important to you?

I want to know what I'm missing -- and, since I'm missing so much, I especially want to know what I'm most urgently missing, what the most glaring omissions from my own knowledge are.

This is a personal self-education project, though I have some evidence that other people have also benefited from it.

[coffee]

Yes, concerning disagreeing with the works list, I meant the long list of 6503 works. Obviously, there are many fine selections I'd agree with there, but also many alternatives I'd prefer in stead, or composers I'd miss. So, in my case and without counting, a large number would be a source of some frustration, if deciding to take the whole thing seriously, since these differences don't tend to change. One's taste can - sometimes - be an island.

Sorry about sounding negative; but just an explanation.

No, don't be sorry! I think you've made one of the most helpful contributions so far.

We can't delete any works that have been recommended, but that's not so bad since I don't anticipate living long enough to get to many works on the bottom tiers anyway.

What we can do, and what I'd like your help with, is adding more important works and then getting them prioritized more highly.

[coffee]

One's taste can - sometimes - be an island, facing a collective.

I did not appreciate the significance of this in my earlier response.

It's true, of course, and insofar as I have preferences about how strongly some works should be recommended, I am sometimes frustrated with the results.

However, to the extent that I wish to vindicate myself in the face of that collective, I have to understand it better, which is why I am doing this. 

[Mandryka]

I want to know what I'm missing -- and, since I'm missing so much, I especially want to know what I'm most urgently missing, what the most glaring omissions from my own knowledge are.

This is a personal self-education project, though I have some evidence that other people have also benefited from it.

It's not like that. It's not that there are hidden gems, because whether something is a gem depends on listeners' responses.  Once you move away from popular classics, there is no authoritative body to define a canon. All there is is your reaction at a certain time and at a certain place to hearing the music in a in an equally context specific interpretation.

So it's not a question of education, it's a question of perception.

[MusicTurner]

There have surely been some monumental listing efforts/projects on TC, and they have no doubt supplied structuring/guidance for some readers.

[Mandryka]

There have surely been some monumental listing efforts/projects on TC, and they have no doubt supplied structuring/guidance for some readers there.

And I'm sure that doing it has increased the number of hits for the website, and the resulting revenue for the owners.

[MusicTurner]

It's not like that. It's not that there are hidden gems, because whether something is a gem depends on listeners' responses.  Once you move away from popular classics, there is no authoritative body to define a canon. All there is is your reaction at a certain time and at a certain place to hearing the music in a in an equally context specific interpretation.

So it's not a question of education, it's a question of perception.

Not quite; if there's no source for somehow  discovering a composer name, obviously the composer's music will remain unknown to one.

[coffee]

It's not like that. It's not that there are hidden gems, because whether something is a gem depends on listeners' responses.  Once you move away from popular classics, there is no authoritative body to define a canon. All there is is your reaction at a certain time and at a certain place to hearing the music in a in an equally context specific interpretation.

So it's not a question of education, it's a question of perception.

I suspect it won't be helpful to get too much into philosophy. Assuming you're the same Mandryka from amazon and TC, you will have known me as wyote and science, and if you remember me you know that we have deep, deep philosophical disagreements.

If possible, I'd like to avoid this becoming too much about me personally. I don't respect myself enough for that anyway. Let's discuss someone with much better education and taste and perception and so on but who also wants to learn more about classical music, and specifically someone who is looking for recommendations among the works she is not already familiar with.

[MusicTurner]

And I'm sure that doing it has increased the number of hits for the website, and the resulting revenue for the owners.

Yet the listings have been done by initiatives from regular members, not owners or moderators there.

[coffee]

And I'm sure that doing it has increased the number of hits for the website, and the resulting revenue for the owners.

Until recently I believe it was basically a charity. That has changed, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. That is actually the main impetus for me trying to drum up some interest for this project here. I don't intend to volunteer my labor, but yet I also realize that the world works the way the world works, and I have to work with it.

I genuinely am not sure what I want to do. I was hoping, at least, to give it some degree of independence from TC. Of course I was also hoping to benefit from the knowledge and opinions of a wider array of people. 

Which is why I might persist with this in spite of the harshly unwelcoming response so far!

[Jo498]

I think it is a waste of time. It suggests precision and consensus when it's just a few dozen of random people on the internet. (And often not the more competent and dedicated people on that fora who write more substantial contributions but those who take a strange delight in these endless votings.)

For the real newbie the 50 or 100 typical standard recommendations are usually pretty good. It doesn't matter at all if someone listens first to Beethoven's 5th or 6th or Mozart's 40 or 41 or rather Haydn's 104 and so on. Especially today, when almost everything can be checked out for free and nobody has to spend considerable money on LPs or CDs to get acquainted with music. I have my share of skepticism against *some* of the "best of" classics or "100 masterworks" selections but overall they mostly give a good overview (at least from ca. 1700s-1930s). Sure, it could be improved on but the improvement would be marginal and it would hardly be worth the effort. (I once participated in the lengthy selection of the "basics list" on a German language forum and we started even to write introductions and someone put them on a website but the project was abandoned after some time.)

For intermediate listeners, extended lists with "tiers" might have some benefit, I agree.
But again, the real benefit of an internet forum is that one can ask specific questions, such as: "I like x,y,z a lot but u,v not so much, what can you recommend next?" This is much better than the pseudo-precision of 27 or 58 tiers!

[Cato]

What is a pissing contest?

A vulgar term for an unpleasant affair: trying to show - through petty means - that one is superior.

I found only six quarter-tone works (perhaps there are more), one each by Julian Carrillo, Alois Haba and Ivan Wyschnegradsky and three by Harry Partch, although one does find Varese and Xenakis and similar experimentalists decently represented.


Film scores by Bernard Herrmann (e.g. Citizen Kane, On Dangerous Ground, Vertigo, The Ghost and Mrs. Muir, Psycho) and Jerome Moross (The Big Country, The War Lord) are completely ignored.


I am gratified to find Louis Vierne and Les Sept Paroles du Christ by Theodore Dubois on the list!

Which is why I might persist with this in spite of the harshly unwelcoming response so far!

Allow me to apologize, if things seem harshly unwelcoming: I do not necessarily find the comments to be so, but I suppose some might seem that way.

I genuinely am not sure what I want to do. I was hoping, at least, to give it some degree of independence from TC. Of course I was also hoping to benefit from the knowledge and opinions of a wider array of people. 

Would you like to know more about specific works and find links to them for listening?  Out of the thousands of choices, you could choose 7 or so per week, find performances to download or to view on e.g. YouTube, and then offer your opinions - or ask for ours!

Here is a start with some works mentioned above:


Christopher Columbus Prelude by Julian Carrillo

https://www.youtube.com/v/tDHMnlQri3g





Les Sept Paroles du Christ by Theodore Dubois

https://www.youtube.com/v/JMa-Ru29j5M&list=OLAK5uy_np108HqiUJiXkjzBOCGyVER2-2xOESqNI



On Dangerous Ground - The Death Hunt by Bernard Herrmann


https://www.youtube.com/v/z_TMZmJxExE&t=14s

[coffee]

I think it is a waste of time. It suggests precision and consensus when it's just a few dozen of random people on the internet. (And often not the more competent and dedicated people on that fora who write more substantial contributions but those who take a strange delight in these endless votings.)

For the real newbie the 50 or 100 typical standard recommendations are usually pretty good. It doesn't matter at all if someone listens first to Beethoven's 5th or 6th or Mozart's 40 or 41 or rather Haydn's 104 and so on. Especially today, when almost everything can be checked out for free and nobody has to spend considerable money on LPs or CDs to get acquainted with music. I have my share of skepticism against *some* of the "best of" classics or "100 masterworks" selections but overall they mostly give a good overview (at least from ca. 1700s-1930s). Sure, it could be improved on but the improvement would be marginal and it would hardly be worth the effort. (I once participated in the lengthy selection of the "basics list" on a German language forum and we started even to write introductions and someone put them on a website but the project was abandoned after some time.)

For intermediate listeners, extended lists with "tiers" might have some benefit, I agree.
But again, the real benefit of an internet forum is that one can ask specific questions, such as: "I like x,y,z a lot but u,v not so much, what can you recommend next?" This is much better than the pseudo-precision of 27 or 58 tiers!

This is all probably true, but it does help me, perhaps because I might be what you consider an intermediate listener.

(I'd classify myself differently, little more than a beginner, though with a lot of empty experiences. It's like the difference between a connoisseur and a gourmand, and of classical music I am the latter. I do not aspire to expertise or anything like that because I think it is beyond my ability.)

For me, the top few dozen tiers are not very interesting or helpful but deeper on the list it really does help me get a sense of what people are likely to know and discuss. I have learned a lot from doing this over the years. I have also heard from others that they have too.

[coffee]

A vulgar term for an unpleasant affair: trying to show - through petty means - that one is superior.

That's what I thought but I don't understand how this would be that. Perhaps it doesn't matter.

I found only six quarter-tone works (perhaps there are more), one each by Julian Carrillo, Alois Haba and Ivan Wyschnegradsky and three by Harry Partch...

I wonder which quarter-tone works you'd recommend most strongly.

Film scores by Bernard Herrmann (e.g. Citizen Kane, On Dangerous Ground, Vertigo, The Ghost and Mrs. Muir, Psycho) and Jerome Moross (The Big Country, The War Lord) are completely ignored.

If I decide to do this on GMG, I will add these to the list!

... and then offer your opinions

I will definitely not be doing that!

Thank you so much for your help.

[foxandpeng]

The entire point of this is to share the music you enjoy most, so what I am asking you to do is to add those "glaring omissions" to our list and help us decide which to recommend more highly.

As you can see, right now we've got Holmboe's 8th symphony, Four Symphonic Metamorphoses, violin concerto, and the trio for Recorder, cello and harpsichord. What do you recommend we add next?

And in order to be most helpful, you can't just say something like "all of them." You have to nominate and promote specific works.

We have Simpson's clarinet quintet and 9th symphony. What specific works do you recommend we add next?

We have about a dozen of PMD's works, so what additional specific works do you recommend we add next?

Although I wish you well, I'm probably not going to engage too much with this thread. I have too many fundamental questions about what you want to achieve, and about whether there is any meaningful value in the task itself. I hope to see you on one of many, many other music threads on GMG, though