Would anyone here like to participate in this?

Started by coffee, June 22, 2022, 08:50:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

coffee

Quote from: foxandpeng on June 24, 2022, 04:40:06 AM
Although I wish you well, I'm probably not going to engage too much with this thread. I have too many fundamental questions about what you want to achieve, and about whether there is any meaningful value in the task itself. I hope to see you on one of many, many other music threads on GMG, though :)

I certainly understand, but I still hope you might decide to share some of your knowledge if I do start working on this here. 
Liberty for the wolf is death for the lamb.

Cato

Quote from: coffee on June 24, 2022, 04:29:02 AM


I wonder which quarter-tone works you'd recommend most strongly.




The ones mentioned in the list are a good start.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/v/GIb6CebsDYA
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

coffee

Quote from: Cato on June 24, 2022, 04:52:10 AM

The ones mentioned in the list are a good start.

Also:

[youtube link to Carrillo's Mass for Pope John XXIII]

Thank you.
Liberty for the wolf is death for the lamb.

Papy Oli

Quote from: coffee on June 22, 2022, 08:50:25 PM
Please see this link: Classical Music: Recommended Works, but Prioritized

A few years ago I attempted to begin a project like this here and the results were (to me) very interestingly different from those I got doing this on other fora. Unfortunately, there was also so much unhappiness with the idea of this project and criticism of each other's voting that I angrily decided not to do it here. I somewhat regret that. If we have some interest here, I will create a thread where people can vote on that project.

We would begin with the lowest tier and work our way up.

Also, even if there is no interest in voting on this project here, feel free to let me know if you know of any works that are missing from our list. I'll add them to the lowest tier and if people feel they should be recommended more strongly, they'll get promoted through the voting. Here is an unranked, alphabetical list of the works we've recommended.


Hi Coffee,

Thank you for that list.

A few random thoughts:

* It can potentially be a great tool for newbies and seasoned listeners alike but the multi-tiered system, to my eyes, makes it too cumbersome and jumbled  to handle and find relevant information easily. I am not sure you would get enough traction here for a game/voting approach on this basis.

* That said however, I think the list in alphabetical format would be a great starting point here for members to recommend you key works or secondary works to add to each composer. If you start a thread to that effect and focus on a couple of composers only at a time (alphabetically OR "major" composers first OR as per your own exploration, I believe members here would be more inclined to contribute based on their listening experience and advise missing/highly recommended works.

*From a newbie perspective or when approaching an unknown composer, it would be daunting to see a long list of works for that composer and not being sure where to start. For example, I hardly know anything by Adams. If your list were to indicate in a simpler way the "essential" works and mark them *** for instance and then ** for "worthy", that would give a starting pointer to that exploring listener, with the rest of the list to explore further if this music ticks the right boxes for him/her.

* Once a composer's list has been "settled on" so to speak, the forum might also benefit if this section of the list would also be posted in the relevant composer's thread in the Composers section. I for one, would find such entry helpful when I am in a mood to explore a new composer. Having done a British, French then Baroque exploration myself in the last 2-3 years, this would be handy in this area of the forum too. I am sure future visitors might think so too.

* For any missing composer, you could also tally your list versus the composers index on this forum and request similar suggestions for the composers you are missing.

You are the "owner" of the list and how you decide to proceed with it, I am not suggesting taking a hatchet to it  ;)  I am only offering an angle where you possibly might get valuable answers for your benefit and for the forum's, without going into a voting system, where members would lose interest more quickly.

In any case, I'll keep a copy of the list for my use. Lots of unknown composers to me in there. That will be a useful future reference indeed. So, thank you.

Olivier

coffee

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 24, 2022, 04:58:12 AM
Hi Coffee,

Thank you for that list.

My pleasure!

If you want to explore a particular composer with the aid of this list, you can use the search function (probably CTRL + F or command + F). I would not advise taking our list as gospel, but it could offer assistance.

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 24, 2022, 04:58:12 AM
* It can potentially be a great tool for newbies and seasoned listeners alike but the multi-tiered system, to my eyes, makes it too cumbersome and jumbled  to handle and find relevant information easily.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I am definitely eager to find ways to make it less cumbersome, or more visually appealing. I'm really not sure how to do it. In the end, perhaps a list of thousands of items is just never going to look very good.

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 24, 2022, 04:58:12 AM
*From a newbie perspective or when approaching an unknown composer, it would be daunting to see a long list of works for that composer and not being sure where to start. For example, I hardly know anything by Adams. If your list were to indicate in a simpler way the "essential" works and mark them *** for instance and then ** for "worthy", that would give a starting pointer to that exploring listener, with the rest of the list to explore further if this music ticks the right boxes for him/her.

The way I would tackle this if I decided I wanted to explore Adams is (among other things) using the search function to see which of his works are recommended most highly.

I am very much a newbie and this is in fact how I use this list.

Of course I am aware of other resources as well and take them into consideration as well.

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 24, 2022, 04:58:12 AM
You are the "owner" of the list and how you decide to proceed with it, I am not suggesting taking a hatchet to it  ;)  I am only offering an angle where you possibly might get valuable answers for your benefit and for the forum's, without going into a voting system, where members would lose interest more quickly.

Ah, I didn't realize voting (rather than prioritization) is the problem.

I'm not willing to sacrifice prioritization but I wonder how I could proceed without voting. I'll think about that.

The entire problem is that if I were to, say, ask for recommendations on Baroque opera, my experience is that pretty soon there will be posts collectively listing hundreds of works, and I'll be basically in the same place I started from -- i.e., dependent for guidance on what I should prioritize on whatever I can find elsewhere on the internet or in the books I happen to have access to and whatever I happen to have heard here and there.

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 24, 2022, 04:58:12 AM
In any case, I'll keep a copy of the list for my use. Lots of unknown composers to me in there. That will be a useful future reference indeed. So, thank you.

You might check in every so often since it is updated regularly.

Again, my pleasure.
Liberty for the wolf is death for the lamb.

Jo498

Quote from: coffee on June 24, 2022, 04:22:31 AM
This is all probably true, but it does help me, perhaps because I might be what you consider an intermediate listener.

(I'd classify myself differently, little more than a beginner, though with a lot of empty experiences. It's like the difference between a connoisseur and a gourmand, and of classical music I am the latter. I do not aspire to expertise or anything like that because I think it is beyond my ability.)

I am not sure what you mean with "empty experiences".

Today, I think the "danger" for anyone beginning with classical music is to get overwhelmed and to believe one had to get to know a lot of music quickly to be informed and keep up with smartass people on the internet. When I began listening as a teenager around 35 years ago it was very different. I could only listen to what happened to be on the radio or in the small record shelf of my parents or what I could borrow from or listen to at a friend's, anything else I had to buy myself with little money from odd jobs and birthdays etc. I had rather vague ideas of dozens of pieces because I had read descriptions in guide books or composer's biographies long before having a chance to listen to them.

But the good thing was that one really had time to "digest" the music and slowly develop preferences and and "ear" for different styles etc. Of course, it took years to get around to some pieces or composers that were for some reason absent. I think I heard the first Sibelius symphony about 9 years later, Nielsen considerably later
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

coffee

#46
Quote from: Jo498 on June 24, 2022, 05:55:09 AM
I am not sure what you mean with "empty experiences".

Today, I think the "danger" for anyone beginning with classical music is to get overwhelmed and to believe one had to get to know a lot of music quickly to be informed and keep up with smartass people on the internet. When I began listening as a teenager around 35 years ago it was very different. I could only listen to what happened to be on the radio or in the small record shelf of my parents or what I could borrow from or listen to at a friend's, anything else I had to buy myself with little money from odd jobs and birthdays etc. I had rather vague ideas of dozens of pieces because I had read descriptions in guide books or composer's biographies long before having a chance to listen to them.

But the good thing was that one really had time to "digest" the music and slowly develop preferences and and "ear" for different styles etc. Of course, it took years to get around to some pieces or composers that were for some reason absent. I think I heard the first Sibelius symphony about 9 years later, Nielsen considerably later

I do believe I need to get to know a lot of music very quickly to be well-informed and keep up with people on the internet and in real life.

It's about the accumulation of cultural capital for me. I believe it is so for all of us, but subconsciously.

Of course I like or enjoy or respect some works more than others, but I am not and never can become the kind of person whose tastes in music should be taken seriously.

I suspect we are almost the same age, and I do kind of miss the days of only having 40 CDs and getting to know the music on them so well that I knew every note, and then if I heard another recording of one of those works the differences stood out so clearly.

However, I sure wish I'd had better guidance way back then. I was such an idiot. I generally hate myself now, but I really hate my younger self.

Anyway, it's pretty much too late for me but maybe I can help someone else who is like me.


Liberty for the wolf is death for the lamb.

DavidW

Multiple superior lists already exist (including this very site!).  This one is just garbage.  It is far too long, and makes an egregious mistake that the canon needs to be split into multiple tiers (hence the pissing contest remark).

For someone new to classical music, they need something short and sweet.  They don't need a gigantic list of TC members favorites.  It is usually better to be curated by a single critic. For example when I was young, the NPR's Guide to Classical Music was a great start until I was ready to take off the training wheels. 

What is even better are books like Alex Ross's The Rest Is Noise which throws the idea of the list out the window and instead explores the people, the culture and the tradition.  Put a face to the music instead of just rattling off endless works and composers.

Finally, I had a student that got into classical music.  Within a few months he had heard all the warhorses.  And by the end of the year he was just as broad and deep in his listening habits as posters here.  Streaming has really changed things.  When I see lists like this, I see people that just don't understand where we are at.  Exploring music in the past was painful and slow because we had to blind buy cds.  That is just not true anymore.  There is still a place for basic lists to get started, but something like this doesn't serve anyone except the people that wrote it.

Mandryka

Quote from: coffee on June 24, 2022, 06:40:56 AM
This is already in the sub-forum for polls (and I've done two pilots of this here already, one in 2012 and one in 2016).

I'm not sure what there is that could be determined, other than what the participants collectively recommend most strongly.

I've got an idea for you. Why don't you write a bit of code to rip though this site and identify all names of composers and see how frequently they're mentioned. That'll give you a measure of tiers.

I once knew a guy who used statistical methods in hermeneutics. He used to count the frequency of words in texts to find the subject. He did it with The Philosophical Investigations, and concluded that the main subject of the book is pain.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

DavidW

Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2022, 07:56:49 AM
I've got an idea for you. Why don't you write a bit of code to rip though this site and identify all names of composers and see how frequently they're mentioned. That'll give you a measure of tiers.

I once knew a guy who used statistical methods in hermeneutics. He used to count the frequency of words in texts to find the subject. He did it with The Philosophical Investigations, and concluded that the main subject of the book is pain.

I think he will be deeply confused about the unusually high frequency of mentions of Havergal Brian! :laugh:

Karl Henning

Quote from: coffee on June 24, 2022, 06:04:14 AM
I do believe I need to get to know a lot of music very quickly to be well-informed and keep up with people on the internet and in real life.

There's so much great music out there. We're all learning more, all the time.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: DavidW on June 24, 2022, 07:43:26 AMFor someone new to classical music, they need something short and sweet.

I agree, I think the newbie will find this bewildering. Heck, I find it bewildering.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

coffee

Liberty for the wolf is death for the lamb.

Iota

Quote from: Mandryka on June 24, 2022, 02:54:58 AM
It's not like that. It's not that there are hidden gems, because whether something is a gem depends on listeners' responses.  Once you move away from popular classics, there is no authoritative body to define a canon. All there is is your reaction at a certain time and at a certain place to hearing the music in a in an equally context specific interpretation.

So it's not a question of education, it's a question of perception.

Surely it's both. A prompt from all sorts of sources, can be very helpful at times. And once one chances on a piece, then perception etc can get to work. The list won't be for everybody, nor for every mood, but that's more a fact of life about most things than a criticism. I think the list could be interesting and would certainly consider using it at certain times.  :)

Jo498

The answer for baroque opera is simple: Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, Monteverdi's L'Orfeo and one of Handel's most famous ones (Alcina, Rinaldo, Giulio Cesare and a few more, it doesn't matter much which one).

Seriously, I am pretty sure that for comparably niche fields, say baroque opera (despite covering 150 years) or French mélodies or Russian piano trios or whatever one will get a pretty manageable set of recommendations. (Maybe here the problem would rather be not getting enough responses.)
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

VonStupp

#55
It seems most are taking umbridge with the fact that this list is ranking composer's works by popularity or preference, whereas most of the lists made on GMG are shared by each person individually, not corporately. It makes for pleasant comparison and conversation.

Back in the days of video rental stores, the local employees would often offer their picks of the week, and depending on my preferences, I would consider selecting movies from that person I shared interests with. That worked much more successfully for me than a single amalgamated list, put together by whatever shadowy CEO or shareholder board from 1000 miles away.

As I see it, to appease the most people, dividing the list into musical eras, and then into genres, possibly sub-genres as well, would put early music on an equal footing with Romantic, as well as symphonic music on a equal footing with vocal (etc.) without unneeded competition or imbalance. Furthermore, making the list alphabetical would take the unneeded rankings out of contention.

But I am not the warden of this list, not am I putting the footwork in, so my two cents are probably not worth much. I also do not know the ultimate purpose of such a list, so perhaps my suggestions are not hitting the point. Good luck to you, though!

VS
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."

coffee

Quote from: VonStupp on June 25, 2022, 06:35:45 AM
It seems most are taking umbridge with the fact that this list is ranking composer's works by popularity or preference, whereas most of the lists made on GMG are shared by each person individually, not corporately. It makes for pleasant comparison and conversation.

Back in the days of video rental stores, the local employees would often offer their picks of the week, and depending on my preferences, I would consider selecting movies from that person I shared interests with. That worked much more successfully for me than a single amalgamated list, put together by whatever shadowy CEO or shareholder board from 1000 miles away.

As I see it, to appease the most people, dividing the list into musical eras, and then into genres, possibly sub-genres as well, would put early music on an equal footing with Romantic, as well as symphonic music on a equal footing with vocal (etc.) without unneeded competition or imbalance. Furthermore, making the list alphabetical would take the unneeded rankings out of contention.

But I am not the warden of this list, not am I putting the footwork in, so my two cents are probably not worth much. I also do not know the ultimate purpose of such a list, so perhaps my suggestions are not hitting the point. Good luck to you, though!

VS

On the contrary, I appreciate these points (and your well wishes) very much!

I think the video rental thing is a great comparison. I used to enjoy that kind of thing at book and music stores too.

I actually made this list originally because I was frustrated by things like "top 100 symphonies" and so on. How far deep into the symphonies should I go before turning to violin concertos and piano trios and violin sonatas? How much romantic music should I know before turning to Renaissance music, and how much of the latter should I know before returning to romantic music?

Even if I had some reason to choose to limit myself to some smaller section of classical music -- let's say, works composed by Haydn, for example -- how many of Haydn's symphonies should I know before turning to his string quartets and masses?

The list can always be reduced in the way you suggest just by eliminating all the works that don't fit your requirements. For example, if you're interested in quarter tone works, you can eliminate all the other works.



Liberty for the wolf is death for the lamb.

Florestan

Quote from: coffee on June 25, 2022, 08:04:46 AM
What I would like to know is how to prioritize between (say) a Janacek opera and a Josquin mass and a Beethoven cello sonata. I

You might as well like to know how to square the circle...

For God's sake, man --- why can't you just listen to what you like and let everybody else listen to what they like? Why do you need lists, comparisons, classifications, tiers and fuck?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

Quote from: coffee on June 25, 2022, 08:04:46 AM

What I would like to know is how to prioritize between (say) a Janacek opera and a Josquin mass and a Beethoven cello sonata. If I could listen to all of them at once, I wouldn't have to prioritize, but I'm kind of stuck making these choices. I have thousands of options and I can only listen to one at a time.


Do you know about Buridan's ass?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

DavidW

Quote from: VonStupp on June 25, 2022, 06:35:45 AM
Back in the days of video rental stores, the local employees would often offer their picks of the week, and depending on my preferences, I would consider selecting movies from that person I shared interests with. That worked much more successfully for me than a single amalgamated list, put together by whatever shadowy CEO or shareholder board from 1000 miles away.

I miss those days.  Even though I'm not a social animal, I'm the type that sits quietly in the barber shop... there was someone at my local video store that had the same taste as I did and their recommendations never steered me wrong.  The algorithms that streaming services have are no replacement.