Would anyone here like to participate in this?

[Iota]

And to so little purpose. If coffee is following his bliss, and his was an invitation, not any compulsion, why does anyone want to jam him up?

+1

[coffee]

It's not me who said that the highest priority in listening to music is to learn something. It's you who said that.

Actually, forget about Mozart. Pick whatever piece of music you want and tell us what you have learned from listening to it.

I already took it back.

But in case there's a point to be made, I learn, I guess, what a work sounds like.

[coffee]

And to so little purpose. If coffee is following his bliss, and his was an invitation, not any compulsion, why does anyone want to jam him up?

+1

I appreciate both you!

[staxomega]

I've only read up to tier 20. It is a very good list of great classical works. I don't necessarily agree with where some of these works are placed but who cares. I will certainly be sending it to a couple of friends from high school that have started to appreciate classical more in their old age as it is a fine guide, and I personally put more stock in a popular "mass opinion" than passing on the list from some classical critic or blog (heck even my opinion as I know what I like, which they might not) which is just a single opinion, where a bias can be far more readily apparent. (This is why we also do meta-analysis in medicine as it naturally weeds out outlier studies, and creates an overall high fidelity summation).

Mozart popping up for the first time only in the sixth tier, Haydn only in the thirteenth and Chopin only in the sixteenth? Gimme a break.

My opinion is that the good folks at TC are mostly teenagers / youngsters who have only recently discovered "classical music", ie mostly Beethoven and Mahler. GMG is vastly more sophisticated, being to TC what calculus is to arithmetic. 

I don't think this is a list from beginners, idiots or teenagers. Just look at the music that is being programmed or recorded and a huge chunk of it would come from those first twenty tiers. There is the chance those musicians and concert programmers are all numpties

You wrote in one other thread in great recordings (Bach thread?) that you mostly listened to music in the background and then attentively listened if something caught your ear. Mahler is going to sound completely senseless with that sort of listening. Holy wars have been raged about andante-scherzo or vice versa in his 6th symphony. It wouldn't matter one iota which came first if you're just listening to it as background listening.

This is anathema to how I listen to music. I want to give nothing but my 100% attention when I hear something, it radically changes the type of music that I like, like not so jokingly referring to the Mozart Divertimenti as music that Aer Lingus would play before takeoff. Perfectly fine background music that would occasionally cause someone to perk up their ear, which is now in line with what you've written as well.

[coffee]

I've only read up to tier 20. It is a very good list of great classical works. I don't necessarily agree with where some of these works are placed but who cares. I will certainly be sending it to a couple of friends from high school that have started to appreciate classical more in their old age as it is a fine guide, and I personally put more stock in a popular "mass opinion" than passing on the list from some classical critic or blog (heck even my opinion as I know what I like, which they might not) which is just a single opinion, where a bias can be far more readily apparent. (This is why we also do meta-analysis in medicine as it naturally weeds out outlier studies, and creates an overall high fidelity summation).

I don't think this is a list from beginners, idiots or teenagers. Just look at the music that is being programmed or recorded and a huge chunk of it would come from those first twenty tiers. There is the chance those musicians and concert programmers are all numpties

You wrote in one other thread in great recordings (Bach thread?) that you mostly listened to music in the background and then attentively listened if something caught your ear. Mahler is going to sound completely senseless with that sort of listening. Holy wars have been raged about andante-scherzo or vice versa in his 6th symphony. It wouldn't matter one iota which came first if you're just listening to it as background listening.

This is anathema to how I listen to music. I want to give nothing but my 100% attention when I hear something, it radically changes the type of music that I like, like not so jokingly referring to the Mozart Divertimenti as music that Aer Lingus would play before takeoff. Perfectly fine background music that would occasionally cause someone to perk up their ear, which is now in line with what you've written as well.

Thank you so much! I hope they enjoy it and find good things for them there.

If you see any way I can make it potentially more helpful for them -- i.e. changing the visual layout or something, since I'm not good at that kind of thing -- please let me know.

[coffee]

... you basically suggested that it would correct some sort of deficiency in me.

I repeat that I don't know about and never wrote about any of your deficiencies.

The total lack of curation is not a feature, it's a fatal flaw.

So we disagree.

Should not be a problem for you, me, or the rest of the world.

Stop letting it bother you and go on with your life.

[coffee]

You implied that they existed.

It's a problem because you want to get the rest of the world on board with your list. Take your list, go home, and go on with your life.

LOL I'll try.

Take care, man.

[Florestan]

I've only read up to tier 20. It is a very good list of great classical works. I don't necessarily agree with where some of these works are placed but who cares. I will certainly be sending it to a couple of friends from high school that have started to appreciate classical more in their old age as it is a fine guide, and I personally put more stock in a popular "mass opinion" than passing on the list from some classical critic or blog (heck even my opinion as I know what I like, which they might not) which is just a single opinion, where a bias can be far more readily apparent.

As Madiel pointed out, God help a beginner who is most strongly recommended to listen to Beethoven''s Ninth or Wagner's Ring, especially if he's a mature person, ie one whose spare time is usually on rather short supply.

You wrote in one other thread in great recordings (Bach thread?) that you mostly listened to music in the background and then attentively listened if something caught your ear. Mahler is going to sound completely senseless with that sort of listening. Holy wars have been raged about andante-scherzo or vice versa in his 6th symphony. It wouldn't matter one iota which came first if you're just listening to it as background listening.

I rarely listen to Mahler (imho Mahler's music is best experienced live) but when I do I listen attentively. Not that I really can stop my mind from wandering, though.

This is anathema to how I listen to music. I want to give nothing but my 100% attention when I hear something, it radically changes the type of music that I like, like not so jokingly referring to the Mozart Divertimenti as music that Aer Lingus would play before takeoff. Perfectly fine background music that would occasionally cause someone to perk up their ear, which is now in line with what you've written as well.

That's funny because to me Mozart's music is of such nature that more often than not an inattentive listening quickly turns into an attentive one, the Divertimenti included.

[coffee]

As Madiel pointed out, God help a beginner who is most strongly recommended to listen to Beethoven''s Ninth or Wagner's Ring, especially if he's a mature person, ie one whose spare time is usually on rather short supply.

I am operating on the assumption that no one's ability to think for themselves is annihilated upon beholding our list.

Actually, I'll engage the point seriously for a moment. I disagree completely with this idea that beginners just want to hear more of what they already like or, even worse, just something light and pretty, that we should try to save them from "the good stuff" until they're "ready for it."

Every now and then a student will ask me what kind of music I like, and I'll say classical, and (most of them being privileged kids with several years studying piano or a string instrument) they'll assume I mean exclusively Mozart et al. And when I'm like, can I play you some, I hit them with Crumb's Black Angels.

Oh, the horror. They "aren't ready" for anything like that, right?

Well, some aren't and never will be. It's not meant to be everyone's cup of tea.

But some percentage of them -- you can see their eyes light up immediately.

It's the kind of moment an educator lives for.

I'm sure I've turned more kids on to classical music with Black Angels than I ever could have with the Radetzky March or Eine kleine Nachtmusik or whatever "appropriate" work comes approved by the authorities.

[Florestan]

As much as I have some issues with the way it's done, this is a far, far more effective way of doing the thing that you're claiming to do, precisely because it has the kind of parameters that you're proud of not having. Apart from the first year, the category is narrower than the entire field of classical music, and the size of the list is manageable rather than listing every single thing that anyone voted for.

I took a look at the Piano category and noticed that one Euphemia Allen's piece Chopsticks is in a higher position than WTC, D960 or Appassionata. 

[Florestan]

I am operating on the assumption that no one's ability to think for themselves is annihilated upon beholding our list.

Actually, I'll engage the point seriously for a moment. I disagree completely with this idea that beginners just want to hear more of what they already like or, even worse, just something light and pretty, that we should try to save them from "the good stuff" until they're "ready for it."

Every now and then a student will ask me what kind of music I like, and I'll say classical, and (most of them being privileged kids with several years studying piano or a string instrument) they'll assume I mean exclusively Mozart et al. And when I'm like, can I play you some, I hit them with Crumb's Black Angels.

Oh, the horror. They "aren't ready" for anything like that, right?

Well, some aren't and never will be. It's not meant to be everyone's cup of tea.

But some percentage of them -- you can see their eyes light up immediately.

It's the kind of moment an educator lives for.

I'm sure I've turned more kids on to classical music with Black Angels than I ever could have with the Radetzky March or Eine kleine Nachtmusik or whatever "appropriate" work comes approved by the authorities.

Why, this very fact makes your list not worth even the paper it can be printed on --- because Crumb's Black Angels is nowhere to be found, not even in the Least Strongly Recommended Tier. Game over, man! 

[Florestan]

But actually, it's in Tier 26. I don't know how you missed it.

Oooops! Well, I did a page search for Crumb which retrieved nothing, but now that I checked it, I get nothing for Beethoven as well. Probably the page is in a non-searchable format, which is a bug in itself.

Anyway, if Black Angels is appropriate for turning kids into classical music afficionados, then any piece in the 26th Tier should do the trick, right? I mean, their being in that tier means they have a lot in common. And indeed, lo and behold!

The 26th Tier:
Bach: Magnificat in D, BWV 243 [1723, 1733]
Bach: Partitas for Keyboard #1-6, BWV 825-830 (Clavier-Übung I) [1725-30]
Beethoven: Piano Sonata #31 in A-flat, op. 110 [1822]
Crumb: Black Angels (Thirteen Images from the Dark Land) [1970]
Debussy: Images pour orchestre, L 122 [1912]
Górecki: Symphony #3 "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs," op. 36 [1976]
Haydn: Symphony #94 in G "Surprise" [1791]
Mozart: String Quintet #4 in G minor, K. 516 [1787]
Prokofiev: Symphony #1 in D, op. 25 "Classical" [1917]
Rachmaninoff: Symphony #2 in E minor, op. 27 [1907]
Ravel: Le Tombeau de Couperin [1917]   

[Florestan]

It was searchable for me. Believe me, I didn't keep scrolling scrolling scrolling scrolling until I found it.

How did you search? I used Edit / Search in Page... / Crumb (in the browser) and got nothing. I could find no Search function on the page itself.

[Madiel]

How did you search? I used Edit / Search in Page... / Crumb (in the browser) and got nothing. I could find no Search function on the page itself.

I think I pressed CTRL + F.

[Florestan]

I think I pressed CTRL + F.

Fuck! That way it works. 

Anyway, the problem still remains. If a beginner, especially a mature person, is given the list and starts from Tier One downward, there is a high probability that he'll give up on the bloody effing classical music long before getting to the Black Angels's tier. 

[coffee]

I took a look at the Piano category and noticed that one Euphemia Allen's piece Chopsticks is in a higher position than WTC, D960 or Appassionata. 

By your standards, shouldn't it be the first recommendation?

[DavidW]

There is the chance those musicians and concert programmers are all numpties

Well it is more the audience.  One year my local orchestra balanced each concert with a 20th century work.  The Beethoven, Brahms etc. piece always met with thundering applause and nearly instantaneous standing ovations.  The more modern pieces were met with paltry applause, even when the performances were obviously better.  The year after it was back to the warhorses.  Disappointing.  And it is not the programmers fault, they were just bending to the will of the audience.

[Florestan]

By your standards, shouldn't it be the first recommendation?

I never recommended anything to anyone that I had not listened to before. I don't even know who Euphemia Allen is.

[coffee]

I never recommended anything to anyone that I had not listened to before. I don't even know who Euphemia Allen is.

You don't know Chopsticks?

[DavidW]

If coffee is following his bliss, and his was an invitation, not any compulsion, why does anyone want to jam him up?

btw I really couldn't have been the only one that immediately thought of...

(which is an excellent recording btw, and who wouldn't want to follow it?)

0:)