Richard Taruskin, musicologist, 1945-2022

[DizzyD]

Taruskin did enjoy many period style musicians like Harnoncourt, Bruggen and Gardiner.  Someone mentioned Hurwitz.  One of Hurwitz's favorite Beethoven PS sets is Brautigam on fortepiano!  If you dislike period style performances just for trying, you can't use Taruskin and Hurwitz for your appeal to authority fallacy, because they frankly took a more nuanced view than you do.  They evaluated the individual performers, and were not as dismissive as some think.

Yeah, I think my favorite interpretation of Beethoven's cello sonatas might be that Wispelwey/Komen recording.

[DavidW]

I didn't take you as anti-HIP. Tangentially, I've probably only heard the Handel keyboard suites on piano

I think you should go onto one of the baroque PI threads and ask about Handel's piano suites!

[prémont]

OK this is a tangent, but valuable how? We can't even be sure about pitch or the amount of vibrato used by string players and singers of that time, but yet a=415 and pretty much vibrato-less playing and singing have become dogma. About as far as you can go is to use instruments from that time or built to the specifications from then.

We know quite a lot, but far from everything. Ideas of pitch stems eg. from well-preserved church organs, but the general impression is, that pitch was less fixed than today, giving us some options to choose between, and the vibrato-less tone is justified by period authors who write that vibrato should be used sparingly and first and foremost as an ornamentation of individual notes. In this way we can deduce much about period performance practice.

[Karl Henning]

I think you should go onto one of the baroque PI threads and ask about Handel's piano suites!

The first Handel I heard on keyboard was Svyatoslav Richter, couldn't help digging it.

[DizzyD]

... the vibrato-less tone is justified by period authors who write that vibrato should be used sparingly and first and foremost as an ornamentation of individual notes. ...

Which shows that vibrato was indeed used. Too many HIP recordings imo sound like dead-hand playing, at least orchestral music. What I really dislike is the idea that recordings pre-Harnoncourt/Leonhardt are somehow invalid and of value only as precursors to more "enlightened" interpretations. Now I dislike overblown over-romaticized interpretations of Bach too, but come on.

[Karl Henning]

My "over-heated Bach" of choice is perforce Schoenberg. I leave Stokowsky to others

[DizzyD]

My "over-heated Bach" of choice is perforce Schoenberg. I leave Stokowsky to others

I actually love the Leibowitz orchestration of Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue. It was that that got me into classical music when I was a kid, in that old Reader's Digest set.

[Karl Henning]

I actually love the Leibowitz orchestration of Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue. It was that that got me into classical music when I was a kid, in that old Reader's Digest set.

Oh, I believe I would like that.

[DavidW]

We know quite a lot, but far from everything. Ideas of pitch stems eg. from well-preserved church organs, but the general impression is, that pitch was less fixed than today, giving us some options to choose between, and the vibrato-less tone is justified by period authors who write that vibrato should be used sparingly and first and foremost as an ornamentation of individual notes. In this way we can deduce much about period performance practice.

And don't forget Joachim's recording which anyone can listen to on youtube.  He used vibrato so sparingly that it was almost non-existent. 

[DizzyD]

And don't forget Joachim's recording which anyone can listen to on youtube.  He used vibrato so sparingly that it was almost non-existent.

I've listened to that. Man, I hate it.  On the other hand I don't like continuous vibrato either of the Kreisler and very young Menuhin type.

(edit)I went back and listened to his recording of Brahms' Hungarian Dance #1. Joachim in that one actually is using some narrow, almost Starker-like vibrato. I like that.

[Florestan]

Oh dear. Sorry to hear.

I have his 6-volume history of western music. I have not read it from cover to cover, only certain sections. Now I better commit to the whole thing...

I read only the volumes concerning 18th, 19th and 20th century. Beside knowing the music inside out and upside down, he had a tremendous sense of humor and an extremely enjoyable writing style. He also made use of technicalities and musical analysis in such a way that a layman could skip those sections without losing the gist of the matter.

Another book of his that I greatly enjoyed is Text and Act.

[prémont]

And don't forget Joachim's recording which anyone can listen to on youtube.  He used vibrato so sparingly that it was almost non-existent.

As far as I know the continuos vibrato wasn't used before ca. 1890, so Joachim belongs to a generation which grew up without this.

[Florestan]

As far as I know the continuos vibrato wasn't used before ca. 1890

And yet both Geminiani and Leopold Mozart warned against, and condemned, employing vibrato indiscriminately --- which is obvious evidence that continuous vibrato was in fact used long before 1890. 

[prémont]

Which shows that vibrato was indeed used. Too many HIP recordings imo sound like dead-hand playing, at least orchestral music. What I really dislike is the idea that recordings pre-Harnoncourt/Leonhardt are somehow invalid and of value only as precursors to more "enlightened" interpretations. Now I dislike overblown over-romaticized interpretations of Bach too, but come on.

I agree with most of this. Also the more cool proto-HIP interpreters may be very enjoyable (eg. Münchinger). On the other hand Maisky, Rostropovich and Shafran use far too much vibrato.

[prémont]

And yet both Geminiani and Leopold Mozart warned against, and condemned, employing vibrato indiscriminately --- which is obvious evidence that continuous vibrato was in fact used long before 1890. 

There are always musicians who ignore or won't follow the generally accepted codex.

Recently we were warned against walking around on railway tracks, which is obvious evidence that there are some who do this.

[DizzyD]

I agree with most of this. Also the more cool proto-HIP interpreters may be very enjoyable (eg. Münchinger). On the other hand Maisky, Rostropovich and Shafran use far too much vibrato.

On modern cello I've always preferred the relatively tight, narrow vibrato of Janos Starker.

[prémont]

On modern cello I've always preferred the relatively tight, narrow vibrato of Janos Starker.

Yes, I also value him much higher than the three I mentioned above.

[Florestan]

There are always musicians who ignore or won't follow the generally accepted codex.

True, but if continuous vibrato had been an exception rather than a widespread practice, then why would have Geminiani and Leopold Mozart warned against, and condemned, it? Heck, one doesn't go at lengths taking issues with exceptions, one simply mentions them, if at all.

[DizzyD]

True, but if continuous vibrato had been an exception rather than a widespread practice, then why would have Geminiani and Leopold Mozart warned against, and condemned, it? Heck, one doesn't go at lengths taking issues with exceptions, one simply mentions them, if at all.

Given the absence of recordings from the 18th century I don't think anyone can really say.

[Florestan]

Given the absence of recordings from the 18th century I don't think anyone can really say.

That sounds like the death sentence for hardcore HIP.