RCA Red Seal, and other seals/marks

[LKB]

Any particular albums you like?

Basically the Gould, Reiner, Heifetz and Munch recordings listed here...

http://www.amazon.com/ideas/amzn1.account.AGVGTACF65DK4REHHEETMPSUHLGQ/3T4ER7WFSWBGH

... Along with von Karajan's Schubert 8&9, Brahms 1 and 3, and Beethoven symphonies, all recorded between 1962 and '69.

There are some interesting releases from Pentatone, but l own only Marriner's Rossini overtures and Ozawa's La Damnation de Faust, which oddly sounds more satisfying on the CD layer due to some weird channeling.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Basically the Gould, Reiner, Heifetz and Munch recordings listed here...

http://www.amazon.com/ideas/amzn1.account.AGVGTACF65DK4REHHEETMPSUHLGQ/3T4ER7WFSWBGH

... Along with von Karajan's Schubert 8&9, Brahms 1 and 3, and Beethoven symphonies, all recorded between 1962 and '69.

There are some interesting releases from Pentatone, but l own only Marriner's Rossini overtures and Ozawa's La Damnation de Faust, which oddly sounds more satisfying on the CD layer due to some weird channeling.

Yes I like these Munch, Stokowski and Boston Pops Living Stereo albums. Again, however, are these technically Red Seal?

[Spotted Horses]

I described what SACD is and why the marketing was BS.  Sony and SACD fanboys put very much stock in the fact that DSD has a 2.8224 MHz sampling rate.  That has as much benefit on sound as an ounce of pure snake oil.

To risk belaboring the point, the 2.8224 MHz sample rate is of great benefit because the delta-sigma ADCs operating at high frequencies eliminated the signal artifacts which plagued digital recordings and masters before the 1990s. The rub is that ordinary CDs also benefit from the high sample rate of Delta-Sigma ADCs (which internally capture audio is something like Sony's DSD) even though the program is encoded as standard resolution PCM.

Sony's ulterior motive in producing SACD was to produce a medium with strong encryption that could not be copied, and could only by played by a player with their proprietary IP. I think it is stupid for the recording industry to be locked into the 44.1 kHz, 16 bit format of the CD, but this has been solved by downloads which are now available in a variety of formats and Blu-Ray audio, which also supports a variety of high resolution formats with the possibility of ripping. This is what made SACD superfluous.

And yet, l can hear the difference in an SACD, as have others.

I should disclose that my hearing is not exactly within the normal parameters for an adult male, having tested up to 21khz. It's possible that for most people some aural training may be necessary to detect the upgrade. Some investigations have suggested this:

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=18296

In any event, they're stll available. From the DG website, for instance...

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/catalogue/products/sacd-the-ultimate-audio-experience-9344

That sounds pretty dicey. An effect that can only be teased out by a meta-study of hundreds of other studies (some of which may be of dubious) is tenuous at best. The difference between a CD and an LP can be recognized by anyone in 1 second.

This bit about requiring training to discern the difference is the tell. One study I saw on line said that CD and SACD can be easily distinguished by playing a nominally silent passage and cranking the volume way, way up until you can hear the quantization noise floor. Then if someone in the recording plays a flute pianissimo it blows you tweeters at that volume. That's not indicative of a real benefit.

I have a Marantz SACD player and I can switch back and forth between the 2 channel CD layer and the 2 channel SACD layer and generally hear no difference.

[Todd]

To risk belaboring the point, the 2.8224 MHz sample rate is of great benefit because the delta-sigma ADCs operating at high frequencies eliminated the signal artifacts which plagued digital recordings and masters before the 1990s. The rub is that ordinary CDs also benefit from the high sample rate of Delta-Sigma ADCs (which internally capture audio is something like Sony's DSD) even though the program is encoded as standard resolution PCM.

Sony's ulterior motive in producing SACD was to produce a medium with strong encryption that could not be copied, and could only by played by a player with their proprietary IP. I think it is stupid for the recording industry to be locked into the 44.1 kHz, 16 bit format of the CD, but this has been solved by downloads which are now available in a variety of formats and Blu-Ray audio, which also supports a variety of high resolution formats with the possibility of ripping. This is what made SACD superfluous.

This is all old news, from decades ago.  Audible sonic benefits attributed to the technology did not and do not exist.  (Benefits of high res PCM when applied to all non-high res recordings are also illusory and attributable to remasterings.)   DSD in various formats (64! 128!!) still lumbers around.  One can choose from a whopping 2200+ native DSD recordings, including perhaps 0-1 that may be interesting.  SACD is dead.

Perhaps we can revisit the VHS vs Betamax debate now.

[Irons]

It's interesting you suggest that there is a big difference bet the Red Seal and the Gold Seal of the same performance in sound quality. More interesting, you say that the reissue (gold seal) became worse. Just like Joe above, I always assumed that the sound quality of reissues would get better and better. Clearly I'm wrong.

You are not wrong or right. As far as the LP record is concerned hard and fast rules do not apply. It is true that early Red Seal were pressed, and on occasions recorded by Decca, for the UK market were excellent but the later English pressed (not Decca) Red Seal's are not so good (below).



Far better are the later Teldec pressed DMM recordings from Germany which are superb.



There are in the vinyl world just too many variables. To say one is superior to the other is a too sweeping a statement.

[Roasted Swan]

You are not wrong or right. As far as the LP record is concerned hard and fast rules do not apply. It is true that early Red Seal were pressed, and on occasions recorded by Decca, for the UK market were excellent but the later English pressed (not Decca) Red Seal's are not so good (below).

There are in the vinyl world just too many variables. To say one is superior to the other is a too sweeping a statement.

I know I'm getting old when I see that red seal label of RVW 2 and I get a wave of nostalgia!  But I remember getting the box of the Symphonies



and having to send it back because 2 or 3 of the discs were just so warped.  The same thing with the Tjeknavorian/Borodin box

[Irons]

I know I'm getting old when I see that red seal label of RVW 2 and I get a wave of nostalgia!  But I remember getting the box of the Symphonies



and having to send it back because 2 or 3 of the discs were just so warped.  The same thing with the Tjeknavorian/Borodin box

You were unlucky. Warped records I seldom encounter.

[Biffo]

You were unlucky. Warped records I seldom encounter.

You must have been lucky - I encountered them quite a lot with Philips being the worst.

[Johnnie Burgess]

Found this:

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Found this:

Could you please post a larger picture? Thanks.

[Irons]

You must have been lucky - I encountered them quite a lot with Philips being the worst.

Dutch pressings?

[Biffo]

Dutch pressings?

No idea, the set I remember having the most problems with - Mahler Symphonies 1 - 4 Haitink/Concertgebouw - has no country of origin.

[Irons]

No idea, the set I remember having the most problems with - Mahler Symphonies 1 - 4 Haitink/Concertgebouw - has no country of origin.

The reason I ask Dutch is that the late pressings were thin. Telling them apart is simple but that is train-spotting territory.

[Biffo]

The reason I ask Dutch is that the late pressings were thin. Telling them apart is simple but that is train-spotting territory.

I bought the Mahler set in summer 1970 and it had multiple problems, including warped discs; the lady in the shop was at her wits end after returning it to the supplier several times.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

If you buy 2 thin records and glue the sides A and B, or glue the two records to another record (3 records in total), would it sound good/better?

[Johnnie Burgess]

Could you please post a larger picture? Thanks.