ADHD

[prémont]

No one can look at others objectively, though- psychology is entirely subjective- it's not a hard science. Psychologists may even disagree on diagnoses. The only objective thing is the physical (brain scans). They won't disagree on something like that if they don't have vision issues. The value of psychologist's observations might be better described as "more informed and experienced," right? Maybe I'm nitpicking your words, though.

I think we agree upon this. A well educated and experienced psychologist who doesn't know you beforehand, will be able to diagnose you in a very much more objective way than you are able to yourself. I do not expect a psycologist to be even 100% objective, but compared to your own 0% objectivity the psycologist invariably wins.

[Karl Henning]

No one can look at others objectively, though- psychology is entirely subjective- it's not a hard science.

You might consider that it's even softer in your hands.

[greg]

You might consider that it's even softer in your hands.

Different people have different levels of self-awareness, though.

Example, before sending in my typing video to OPS I had 6 guesses about which type they would type me as. The system has 512 types, so odds were quite low that one would be correct, but my last guess of the six guesses was correct. The only way I could get that close was to learn about the system and have plenty of time to reflect on it.

Background on the people typing is that they have typed thousands of people so have a good idea of what a general average is among the general population.

People have typed themselves correctly but it's rare, and always requires that they know the typing system well in the first place. People lacking self awareness or not knowing the system well (although that's a lesser concern, because there is a requirement of being in their class for months before being able to get typed) will type themselves waaay different than what they get typed. After all the odds are like .2% that they guess correctly with one guess.

So it really depends.

Someone who is an ADHD expert and has great self-awareness at the same time could probably self diagnose with good accuracy. They would probably seek other opinions and get the same input and diagnosis.

[staxomega]

Probably one exception I could think of would be something like schizophrenia... seems like something way too obvious and that a self-diagnosis is perfectly fine. Hallucinations just don't happen for people unless they have that, much less regularly. Maybe only in sleep or sensory deprivation situations.

Even though this entire thread is filled with junk science and some anti-vaxxer levels of posting this in particular is way wide off the mark, and is basically a television level understanding of psychosis. In a pt presenting with psychosis they could have:

Drug intoxication (either Rx or illicit)
Withdrawal
Schizophrenia
Schizophreniform disoder
Schizoaffective disorder
Brief psychotic disorder
Major depressive disorder with psychosis
Bipolar disorder with psychosis

So yeah, you most definitely can not just "self diagnose."

I know several psychiatrists, including some I was friends with during residency. The American Board licensing exam is supposed to be bloody difficult, like all AB exams. Even after 3.5 years of residency and seeing thousands of patients they still had 6-8 months of rigorous studying before they could be board certified. You're really trivializing how complex most of these things are.

[Szykneij]

One thing fascinating is how it comes out in body language.

There is a system that analyzes body language and relates it to the Jungian functions.

Interesting to read this. When I was teaching large groups of 9-year-old beginning violin students, I did notice there were correlations between students who had trouble maintaining certain positions or postures and their learning disabilities. I often thought it was something I should study more deeply, although I never was able to.

[Florestan]

I think we agree upon this. A well educated and experienced psychologist who doesn't know you beforehand, will be able to diagnose you in a very much more objective way than you are able to yourself. I do not expect a psycologist to be even 100% objective, but compared to your own 0% objectivity the psycologist invariably wins.

As someone who sought the help of psychologists twice, I can assure you that all that they did in both cases was making me talk into the next (paid) session and so on and so on --- until I said okay, thanks, I will call you when I'll be ready again, which was never again.

If you ask me, psychology is okay, private-practicing psychologists are just money-making machines. 

[Karl Henning]

As someone who sought the help of psychologists twice, I can assure you that all that they did in both cases was making me talk into the next (paid) session and so on and so on --- until I said okay, thanks, I will call you when I'll be ready again, which was never again.

If you ask me, psychology is okay, private-practicing psychologists are just money-making machines. 

Someone close to me attempted suicide, and failed, happily. Part of her recovery was weekly sessions with someone she called a "talking doctor" (possibly fearing to some degree the stigma of referring to someone who I suspect was a psychologist as a psychologist. That doctor was an enormous and important help to the person close to me for a long time. This person close to me "graduated" into "I'll call at need, but may find that I don't need" independence some time ago. I'm enormously proud of this person, and deeply grateful to the psychologist.

In contrast, When I was in my late teens (and I don't know how the occasion arose) The rather dysfunctional family of mine went to a family therapy session. My suspicion is that my mother hoped for some kind of gain. We children were uncertain and less than comfortable, and I feel that my father did not participate in altogether good faith, so I cannot say that much was accomplished, and the experiment was not repeated. I do not believe that was the fault of the therapist, who was not in any regard a cynical operator.

We might say that a psychologist does not really serve a purpose which could not be served just as well (or better) by close friends and supportive family, but any of us might be less fortunate in our circumstance, and a good psychologist serves a needful purpose.

[greg]

Even though this entire thread is filled with junk science and some anti-vaxxer levels of posting this in particular is way wide off the mark, and is basically a television level understanding of psychosis. In a pt presenting with psychosis they could have:

Drug intoxication (either Rx or illicit)
Withdrawal
Schizophrenia
Schizophreniform disoder
Schizoaffective disorder
Brief psychotic disorder
Major depressive disorder with psychosis
Bipolar disorder with psychosis

So yeah, you most definitely can not just "self diagnose."

I know several psychiatrists, including some I was friends with during residency. The American Board licensing exam is supposed to be bloody difficult, like all AB exams. Even after 3.5 years of residency and seeing thousands of patients they still had 6-8 months of rigorous studying before they could be board certified. You're really trivializing how complex most of these things are.

Gotcha. Good clarification.
This is correct, since there are many different types of disorders that hallucinations can fall under, determining that it's specifically schizophrenia would require a professional.

Wondering if people are confusing "junk science" with (widely discussed) theories on this thread, though.

[greg]

Interesting to read this. When I was teaching large groups of 9-year-old beginning violin students, I did notice there were correlations between students who had trouble maintaining certain positions or postures and their learning disabilities. I often thought it was something I should study more deeply, although I never was able to.

It's still in its infancy.
https://cognitivetype.com/

The more simple observations (like what is introverting/what is extraverting) are quite intuitive to anyone. The more complicated ones are more debatable.

But it's a work in progress and the model has changed over time.

You could possibly connect these to learning disabilities, but would entirely depend on which ones. Though it's more speculative at this point. Problem is the extra step, as this system is about cognitive functions, which would then have to be associated with a disorder, but often the associations is weak or debatable.

[greg]

As someone who sought the help of psychologists twice, I can assure you that all that they did in both cases was making me talk into the next (paid) session and so on and so on --- until I said okay, thanks, I will call you when I'll be ready again, which was never again.

If you ask me, psychology is okay, private-practicing psychologists are just money-making machines. 

Once for me, a long time ago. Good attempt from her, but after going home and thinking about it, she was barking up the wrong tree and couldn't quite guess my internal motivations correctly.

Someone close to me attempted suicide, and failed, happily. Part of her recovery was weekly sessions with someone she called a "talking doctor" (possibly fearing to some degree the stigma of referring to someone who I suspect was a psychologist as a psychologist. That doctor was an enormous and important help to the person close to me for a long time. This person close to me "graduated" into "I'll call at need, but may find that I don't need" independence some time ago. I'm enormously proud of this person, and deeply grateful to the psychologist.

In contrast, When I was in my late teens (and I don't know how the occasion arose) The rather dysfunctional family of mine went to a family therapy session. My suspicion is that my mother hoped for some kind of gain. We children were uncertain and less than comfortable, and I feel that my father did not participate in altogether good faith, so I cannot say that much was accomplished, and the experiment was not repeated. I do not believe that was the fault of the therapist, who was not in any regard a cynical operator.

We might say that a psychologist does not really serve a purpose which could not be served just as well (or better) by close friends and supportive family, but any of us might be less fortunate in our circumstance, and a good psychologist serves a needful purpose.

It's great when it helps some people.

Others, though, fall into a category (I'd be part of this group) where social support is just not something they need, the only thing that works is actual solutions. And it's exacerbated the fact they they feel fundamentally different from others and impossible to be understood. I've never understood the people who "just need someone to talk to." It's interesting to observe the differences, though. And good for them, in a way, IMO, that seems a bit easier.

[greg]

Trying to frame this in a simple way...

Imagine our brain as a targeting radar.

Non-ADHD lock-on targeting is controllable by the conscious mind. Sense of duty, obligation, etc. is conscious and can direct one's lock-on.

ADHD doesn't have that control. Since it's entirely directed by passion, the targeting system locks on by itself.

In progress description, probably more able to be visualized by gamers...


Watched a few TedX talks about ADHD last night, one thing this one lady said was that ADHD people (probably autistuc people as well, I'd add) are more like the R&D team, whereas others are more like the factory workers. Liking the analogy.

[Karl Henning]

Others, though, fall into a category (I'd be part of this group) where social support is just not something they need, the only thing that works is actual solutions.

Not sure I quite buy that. Rhetorical q.: If social support is just not something you need, what are you doing in this thread? It's not either/or: the social support is in order to find a solution.

[greg]

Not sure I quite buy that. Rhetorical q.: If social support is just not something you need, what are you doing in this thread? It's not either/or: the social support is in order to find a solution.

Good question.
Discussion, curiosity and learning. Mental stimulation from a topic that caught my attention and would like to deep dive.

Which some posts here has provided.

Starting to feel that it would be nice if people knew about enneagram more. It is starting to feel more and more clear, the more that I start to understand type 6, that you and possibly one or two more people here are type 6. It's a complex type but also the second most common. If you are coming from that perspective then it explains why you wouod automatically assume someone is trying to get social support. Type 6 is concerned with the reliability of people and things and wants to be guided by that reliable thing and fears most to be misled. It's a need to find the right ideology, group, support system, etc. and avoid any possible future traps and being deceived, so there is a hypervigilance about any questionable behavior that might indicate future trouble. So I suspect from that they are more likely to be complain about "misinformation."

Probably I should be more forgiving of people not understanding my internal motivations and such due to being the least common type (let alone tritype combo being very rare unless you talk to a lot of people online).

As a type 5, I'm more concerned about learning and expanding mental maps towards omniscience. This usually happens during research, but discussion sometimes. Not through lectures, though.... type 5 isn't as concerned about filtering from sources, more just about gathering data itself., like a data scientist.


Edit:

Hmm maybe a quick way of summarizing that the intent of creating this thread is to look for info, not help or support. Although info can be "helpful."