You love the tune but hate the text

[Verena]

Hello all,

Longtime on and off lurker speaking. I've wondered whether any of you have experienced this and how you "deal" with it. I'm a German native speaker and I sometimes hate the texts that go with certain songs or arias. Sometimes I think the texts are just a little bit ludicrous, sometimes I find them so horrible that it really detracts from my enjoyment of the music. And sometimes I just can't listen to the music because of the texts. Cases in point: Schubert songs (just bad poetry sometimes in my obviously personal view), far worse is Wagner (of course) or certain Mahler songs - I don't really know whether I like the last movement of his fourth symphony because I can't stand the text, so much so that I stop listening. Anyone who has similar experiences? Maybe I should listen to performances of these compositions in languages I don't speak at all (if I find them, that is).

[Jo498]

I don't remember any Schubert song lyrics as distractingly horrible. Some are a bit cheesy or sentimental, e.g. "Das Zügenglöcklein". "Das himmlische Leben" is rather funny, I think. The worst well known Mahler I find "Es sungen drei Engel..." in the 3rd symphony and the really worst I tend to skip is "Verlorne Müh" from Wunderhorn, because the music is not memorable either and trained singers trying that fake dialect (not sure if it was close to some dialect 200 years ago when this poetry was collected/edited but it sounds fake) is horrendous.

Wagner is a very special case. Often one cannot understand the text anyway. Sometimes it is quite poignant and poetic or even witty. (I think that Sachs' response to Walther "Wie fang ich nach der Regel an? - Ihr stellt sie selbst und folgt ihr dann" or even the "nationalist" final of Meistersinger (i.e. the elevation of German arts and artists above political conflict and disunity) are getting their points across quite well)
Then it is often so strange and far removed from normal language that it's literally beyond good and evil. "Wes Herd dies auch sei, hier muss ich rasten" is very good,  but "Ein Quell etc." for "I am thirsty, get me a drink" is just bizarre. Or calling the torch "Zünde" in Tristan, II. Words, either made up or totally uncommon and giving a comical impression.

[Todd]

I find Wagner's texts just plain awful.  I used to read them when listening to the operas, but I long ago stopped doing that.  I find most texts for most music to be less satisfactory than the music, so I always listen for the tune.  I will also write that as a native English speaker, I generally detest the English language when used in opera or art song, partly because I find English to sound comparatively ugly in such forms.  Someone like Ned Rorem is the very rare exception here.  English language pop and rock songs fare a bit better, but there the short, simple tune is definitely the thing.

[Biffo]

Unfortunately, a large proportion of Schubert's texts are depressing. Even the ones that start off cheerful end up in weeping, sobbing, warm tears, cold tears, wanting to die etc. Johann Mayrhofer's texts are easily the worst. Mayrhofer and Schubert were friends but fell out. Mayrhofer outlived Schubert but committed suicide in 1836 - not surprising when you read his poetry. Schubert set more Mayrhofer than any other poet except Goethe.

Having said that Winterreise is my favourite of Schubert's lieder.

The texts of Bach's cantatas are pretty dreary - too much grief for sin etc. I usually read through the text then let the music take over rather than following the text word for word.

[Karl Henning]

Mostly in the pop music world. This q. arose on Twitter, and this was my view of "Tom Sawyer" by Rush.

[Brian]

Mostly in the pop music world. This q. arose on Twitter, and this was my view of "Tom Sawyer" by Rush.

Agreed - I listen to almost no present-day pop music because the lyrics ruin the tunes for me. Old jazz standards often reveal very old-fashioned views of romance and gender roles. And, of course, even "classic" rock has lyrics like yeah yeah yeah, nah nah nah, da da da, and the unforgettable sha la la la la la la la la la la di dah. 

[Florestan]

I don't pay much attention to the text, be it opera (a synopsis is more than enough for me, I have never ever listened libretto in hand -- but then again I speak French fluently and understand Italian fairly well) or Lieder (my German is very limited anyway) Prima la musica poi le parole is my guiding principle.

[Verena]

I don't pay much attention to the text, be it opera (a synopsis is more than enough for me, I have never ever listened libretto in hand -- but then again I speak French fluently and understand Italian fairly well) or Lieder (my German is very limited anyway) Prima la musica poi le parole is my guiding principle.

Yeah, I also try not to pay attention. The problem is that if the language is pronounced clearly enough, it is hard to avoid comprehending what is being sung, especially if one knows beforehand that you hate the text   

[Verena]

I don't remember any Schubert song lyrics as distractingly horrible. Some are a bit cheesy or sentimental, e.g. "Das Zügenglöcklein". "Das himmlische Leben" is rather funny, I think. The worst well known Mahler I find "Es sungen drei Engel..." in the 3rd symphony and the really worst I tend to skip is "Verlorne Müh" from Wunderhorn, because the music is not memorable either and trained singers trying that fake dialect (not sure if it was close to some dialect 200 years ago when this poetry was collected/edited but it sounds fake) is horrendous.

Wagner is a very special case. Often one cannot understand the text anyway. Sometimes it is quite poignant and poetic or even witty. (I think that Sachs' response to Walther "Wie fang ich nach der Regel an? - Ihr stellt sie selbst und folgt ihr dann" or even the "nationalist" final of Meistersinger (i.e. the elevation of German arts and artists above political conflict and disunity) are getting their points across quite well)
Then it is often so strange and far removed from normal language that it's literally beyond good and evil. "Wes Herd dies auch sei, hier muss ich rasten" is very good,  but "Ein Quell etc." for "I am thirsty, get me a drink" is just bizarre. Or calling the torch "Zünde" in Tristan, II. Words, either made up or totally uncommon and giving a comical impression.

I'm vegan, that's why I hate that Mahler song and don't find it funny, though it probably is (my impression is that it is rather ironical in fact, but I never listened to it till the end. If the words are uncommon as in Tristan, that would also rather strengthen my interest in the work, since I'm interested in how language changes over time.

[Verena]

I find Wagner's texts just plain awful.  I used to read them when listening to the operas, but I long ago stopped doing that.  I find most texts for most music to be less satisfactory than the music, so I always listen for the tune.  I will also write that as a native English speaker, I generally detest the English language when used in opera or art song, partly because I find English to sound comparatively ugly in such forms.  Someone like Ned Rorem is the very rare exception here.  English language pop and rock songs fare a bit better, but there the short, simple tune is definitely the thing.

Oh, I love English spoken or sung. The language itself sounds like music to me  . English choirs are the greatest for me. But I know that this is not a universal attitude.

[Verena]

Mostly in the pop music world. This q. arose on Twitter, and this was my view of "Tom Sawyer" by Rush.

That's interesting because one might have thought that pop songs are closer to our modern outlook on life and hence potentially less dated. Though of course lyrics can be annoying in other ways, too.

[Jo498]

Das himmlische Leben is ironical in as much the childish dream of heaven is more like "Schlaraffenland", i.e. above all plenty of food, including the butchering of animals. The only really heavenly stanza is the last one describing the heavenly music: Kein Musik ist ja nicht auf Erden, die unserer verglichen kann werden.

If I couldn't take texts or lyrics I don't agree with ideologically, I would have to severely restrict the literature I could read. Unless we are dealing with extremely explicit descriptions (of e.g. butchering), I don't think that this is a reasonable way to deal with literature or lyrics.

[ritter]

If I couldn't take texts or lyrics I don't agree with ideologically, I would have to severely restrict the literature I could read. Unless we are dealing with extremely explicit descriptions (of e.g. butchering), I don't think that this is a reasonable way to deal with literature or lyrics.

Very much agree with this, and I'd add that how be perceive the quality or worth of a literary or musical work (or a combination of both) should not be dictated by how "up to date" it is of how it relates to our everyday life.

The obvious case is Wagner, already mentioned above. Yes, Wagner uses artificially archaic formulations and language that, in many casss, sound bizarre today, and much (but not all) of what he wrote as libretti, taking in isolation, is not really that great. But much of it, with the music, becomes of the highest calibre and pertinently addresses many crucial issues of Western civilisation, at the same level as the greats from that preceded him.

As for songs, we really cannot expect all music to be set to texts by the likes of Mallarmé, Baudelaire, Rilke, etc., can we? Mahler's use of naïf/popular texts in the Wunderhorn-Lieder and related works, for instance, or his own in the Fahrenden Gesellen , perfectly suit the purpose set out, don't they?

[Jo498]

One would really have to go to specific texts. I am not an expert (i.e. I don't have a degree in literature although my high school/prep school was comparably heavy in humanities) but have read my share of both literature/lyrics and commentary in several languages and I think with normal "charity" there is rather little lyrics/text in classical music I find so cringeworthy that I'd rather not understand the language.
And for the worst cases there is always ironically distant appreciation, such as in "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die" or "Das ist kein Mann?!?!!"

(I also dimly remember the detailed "butchering descriptions" in Moby Dick and in "Butcher's Crossing" (with buffaloes) quite fascinating despite never having been hunting, not even fishing myself.)

[Verena]

Das himmlische Leben is ironical in as much the childish dream of heaven is more like "Schlaraffenland", i.e. above all plenty of food, including the butchering of animals. The only really heavenly stanza is the last one describing the heavenly music: Kein Musik ist ja nicht auf Erden, die unserer verglichen kann werden.

If I couldn't take texts or lyrics I don't agree with ideologically, I would have to severely restrict the literature I could read. Unless we are dealing with extremely explicit descriptions (of e.g. butchering), I don't think that this is a reasonable way to deal with literature or lyrics.

Not saying I'm reasonable  Thanks for the explanation.

[Verena]

Very much agree with this, and I'd add that how be perceive the quality or worth of a literary or musical work (or a combination of both) should not be dictated by how "up to date" it is of how it relates to our everyday life.

The obvious case is Wagner, already mentioned above. Yes, Wagner uses artificially archaic formulations and language that, in many casss, sound bizarre today, and much (but not all) of what he wrote as libretti, taking in isolation, is not really that great. But much of it, with the music, becomes of the highest calibre and pertinently addresses many crucial issues of Western civilisation, at the same level as the greats from that preceded him.

As for songs, we really cannot expect all music to be set to texts by the likes of Mallarmé, Baudelaire, Rilke, etc., can we? Mahler's use of naïf/popular texts in the Wunderhorn-Lieder and related works, for instance, or his own in the Fahrenden Gesellen , perfectly suit the purpose set out, don't they?

Completely agree. There are just certain texts that for some reason trigger negative responses that detract from my enjoyment of the music. Not something I can intentionally suppress. I was talking about my gut response, not about artistic value.

[ritter]

.... There are just certain texts that for some reason trigger negative responses that detract from my enjoyment of the music. Not something I can intentionally suppress. I was talking about my gut response, not about artistic value.

Quite understandable; it happens to all of us, I guess. Many an opera libretto makes me cringe, and even if I "praised" Mahler in my previous post, the strongly dislike the text to Das klagende Lied . "Ach Spielmann, lieber Spielmann mein". Please! 

And the text to a work I really like the (music and the way the words are set to music), Debussy's La Damoiselle élue, I find downright revolting. 

[Verena]

Quite understandable; it happens to all of us, I guess. Many an opera libretto makes me cringe, and even if I "praised" Mahler in my previous post, the strongly dislike the text to Das klagende Lied . "Ach Spielmann, lieber Spielmann mein". Please! 

And the text to a work I really like the (music and the way the words are set to music), Debussy's La Damoiselle élue, I find downright revolting. 

Fortunately my French is poor enough to enable me to ignore the text in such a case. Now you got me interested in this work, which I'm not familiar with   

[Mandryka]

Hello all,

Longtime on and off lurker speaking. I've wondered whether any of you have experienced this and how you "deal" with it. I'm a German native speaker and I sometimes hate the texts that go with certain songs or arias. Sometimes I think the texts are just a little bit ludicrous, sometimes I find them so horrible that it really detracts from my enjoyment of the music. And sometimes I just can't listen to the music because of the texts. Cases in point: Schubert songs (just bad poetry sometimes in my obviously personal view), far worse is Wagner (of course) or certain Mahler songs - I don't really know whether I like the last movement of his fourth symphony because I can't stand the text, so much so that I stop listening. Anyone who has similar experiences? Maybe I should listen to performances of these compositions in languages I don't speak at all (if I find them, that is).

No I don't agree. For me the text is very important for appreciating the music, my experience in lieder and opera is less satisfying if I don't know what the text means.

For example, how on earth could anyone appreciate this song if they don't know what the words mean, they'd get completely the wrong idea and their experience of the whole would be reduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_YokuLpgQ8&ab_channel=KatharineDurran-Topic

And imagine someone didn't know what Veni creatur spiritus meant -- they would think that the first movement of Mahler 8 was the setting of a popular secular song or something.

In both cases, if you don't know the meaning of the words, you miss the irony, and the irony is of the essence in these pieces.

[Verena]

No I don't agree. For me the text is very important for appreciating the music, my experience in lieder and opera is less satisfying if I don't know what the text means.

For example, how on earth could anyone appreciate this song if they don't know what the words mean, they'd get completely the wrong idea and their experience of the whole would be reduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_YokuLpgQ8&ab_channel=KatharineDurran-Topic

And imagine someone didn't know what Veni creatur spiritus meant -- they would think that the first movement of Mahler 8 was the setting of a popular secular song or something.

In both cases, if you don't know the meaning of the words, you miss the irony, and the irony is of the essence in these pieces.

Thanks for the two examples. Couldn't agree more. I've been trying to get a grip on irony for years so these are particularly interesting for me. Haven't been familiar with either (Mahler 8 being the only symphony of his I've avoided completely so far).