Harnoncourt's Mozart

[lordlance]

What sort of tuning does Harnoncourt use for his CMW Mozart set: https://open.spotify.com/album/7DCZ3xzUuObEEqwdYbuQdY | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuQcFC8rink (Sample first minute of third movement)

Why is the string sound... off? Is it a tuning that no other HIP ensemble uses? It's distinct.

A side question: HIP ensembles sound different because they use different instruments right? And by that I know that wind instruments were valve-less so they sounded different, the cover on timpani were made from animal skin instead of plastic and the stick used for hitting the timpani was different as well. Aren't violins all "period" because all the Stradivarius instruments are prized by violinists everywhere and they don't sound different to modern violins. I know minimal vibrato is what contributes to the HIP sound.

[Spotted Horses]

The Stradivarius instruments used in conventional performance have been significantly modified to support the greater tension created by steel strings. This, I believe, involves replacement of the bridge and perhaps internal reinforcement of the structure to support the neck. A violin set up for PI performance will be in its original configuration with gut strings. The modern bow is also different from the bow used in Mozart's time and requires a different bowing technique.

Modern performances conventionally tune to A=440 Hz and period performances typically tune to a lower frequency, although the relative tuning of the strings on the instruments are the same.

[lordlance]

The Stradivarius instruments used in conventional performance have been significantly modified to support the greater tension created by steel strings. This, I believe, involves replacement of the bridge and perhaps internal reinforcement of the structure to support the neck. A violin set up for PI performance will be in its original configuration with gut strings. The modern bow is also different from the bow used in Mozart's time and requires a different bowing technique.

Modern performances conventionally tune to A=440 Hz and period performances typically tune to a lower frequency, although the relative tuning of the strings on the instruments are the same.

Ah I had no idea. Thanks for explaining these things.

[Mandryka]

I know it's not in that set, but I wonder if you think he sounds out of tune in music with no strings, like Gran Partita. Where I'm coming from is that I think there's more to it,  and that there's timing and microtonal shenanigans going on, that's to say, the players are adjusting the notes they form, and when they form them, to create a more scrunchy ensemble sound.

[Jo498]

The Gran partita and the two other large scale wind serenades are exceptions as they were done with modern instruments.
In any case, in most of the older "Das Alte Werk" LPs and CDs all the instruments used are listed with maker, date and for copies both the modern maker and the original instrument.

tbh I don't remember what pitch they used, 415 (instead of 440) Hz is very common but there are some variations (425, 430, some even below 400, I think), although this is also noted on most such recordings.

[Spotted Horses]

The Gran partita and the two other large scale wind serenades are exceptions as they were done with modern instruments.
In any case, in most of the older "Das Alte Werk" LPs and CDs all the instruments used are listed with maker, date and for copies both the modern maker and the original instrument.

I've had those Harncourt recordings since they were new releases, but I falsely remembered that they were PI performances by the CMW.

[Jo498]

There is personnel overlap with the people playing woodwinds in the Concentus musicus but the "Wiener Mozart Bläser" (ad hoc name, I am sure) uses modern instruments. I don't know why but I could imagine that in the early 1980s not all of them felt sufficiently comfortable with the older instruments especially in a pure woodwind/horns piece where intonation issues might multiply.
Harnoncourt recorded most of the wind concerti (except flute, I believe) and several "mixed ensemble"/orchestral serenades with the CM a few years later.

[MusicTurner]

I own both the Concertgebouw set, and that early symphonies set, and enjoy both a lot.

I also have the religious vocal works box, but haven't listened that much to it. His Posthorn Serenade with the Dresden Staatskapelle is glorious, and the Horn Concertos with Baumann good too.

Idomeneo (apparently not that convincing), a fine Lucio Silla, and a bit more too.

I don't have the piano concertos with Gulda.

[Jo498]

I am not too familiar with his Mozart opera recordings although I own several of them.
There are of course considerable differences in sheer sound (and supposedly also tuning) between the Concertgebouw and the Concentus Musicus recordings. There are maybe some later (live) recordings I am not aware of but for me the most "normal", i.e. least "Harnoncourtish" sounding Mozart is in fact the Haffner and Posthorn serenade with the Staatskapelle Dresden. Maybe it's also because of the recording venue and technicians as I think some of the early 1980s Concertgebouw recordings sound uncommonly "harsh" because of early digital technology.
IIRC the much later disc with clarinet/oboe/flute+harp concerti also sounds quite conventional despite using old instruments whereas the wind serenades mentioned above have many "mannerisms" or oddities in tempo, articulation etc. so they sound unconventional despite modern instruments.

One central point that can be both pro or contra depending on the listener seems to me that Harnoncourt takes all the serenades he recorded (not all, but quite a few), all the early Salzburg symphonies and sacred music by the teenaged Mozart completely seriously. So they will sometimes lack charm, elegance etc. conventionally associated with Mozart.

[lordlance]

Is the answer simply tuning then?

Sample his Symphony 25: https://open.spotify.com/track/0DFvKjwouFPU0TI2YNCL5G?si=d3354e9aea5b491b
With another HIP record: https://open.spotify.com/track/5ciCs5BMG0U7J06dsOzutA?si=304ee2f336924171 or (pseudio-HIP) https://open.spotify.com/track/2TsUn1kh3cheCxRAAdQvJU?si=cbc8adc8a9dd402f

Harnoncourt strings has more harshness which is really only with his Mozart that I've heard.

A second question: What about the brass? They also sound different with Harnoncourt like at 00:10 in the link that I share or notice their prominence in the opening: https://open.spotify.com/track/1AI4IUQiqZ6diF0pSyXOMh?si=7e1a68ab7b144ed5

Did he just favor highlighting brass? There's something about the way Harnoncourt makes brass sound.

[Roberto]

I can't listen to the samples now but I will. Harnoncourt is controversial and unconventional. I have the big Sony box with last recordings and I have earlier Teldec recordings also.
I like his recording about early Mozart symphonies with CMW but I dislike his recording about the last 3.
I think orchestral balances on the early symphonies recording is quite good. Prominent winds but not overly accentuated. I think CMW is good but not first rate orchestra even in the period instrument group.
Their string tone is aceptable but it is ironic that no modern instrument orchestra can produce such metallic and harsh string tones than period instrument orcestras with gut strings...
There are moments in the last 3 symphonies where Harnoncourt turns the music inside out. Barely audible strings (which plays the main themes) and overly accentuated winds who play only rhythms or sustained tones. I think that is not what Mozart wanted.

[DavidW]

There are moments in the last 3 symphonies where Harnoncourt turns the music inside out. Barely audible strings (which plays the main themes) and overly accentuated winds who play only rhythms or sustained tones. I think that is not what Mozart wanted.

Which recording?  Certainly not the RCO.  Anyway when you hear a recording like that... blame the audio engineer not the conductor.  Sounds like poor miking.

[Roberto]

Which recording?  Certainly not the RCO.  Anyway when you hear a recording like that... blame the audio engineer not the conductor.  Sounds like poor miking.

You are right, not the RCO. This was among his last Mozart recordings what I found in this box
https://www.amazon.com/Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Complete-Sony-Recordings/dp/B01G3LLDH8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2H2XWEDWG1KDN&keywords=harnoncourt+sony&qid=1681066318&sprefix=harnoncourt+s%2Caps%2C327&sr=8-1
I don't like every recordings in it but when I bought, it was 50 EUR and worth every cent.
Best Bruckner 5th and 9th I've ever heard, great Mozart early symphonies, great Dvorak, superior Smetana, good Bach, very good Bartók.
Actually I am curious about his RCO Mozart symphony recordings (I like his Schubert and I love his Brahms) but now I have so much Mozart symphonies that I feel I should not pay for more...

Anyway when you hear a recording like that... blame the audio engineer not the conductor.  Sounds like poor miking.

Yes but I was active in a hi-fi forum also where people always blame engineers for poor recordings and the engineers there always protest against this. They said that they just serve what producers and performers wanted.
Speaking about recordings. Recording process is very interesting for me. I've seen many videos about recording process, I've read many autobiography from conductors and performers. I even participated at recordings because there is a club here which set up public studio recordings (you have to member of that club and you have to pay for it). I was even at Budapest Festival Orchestra's studio recordings. Every recording is different of course but I think Solti described it best at his autobiography: recording process is team work.